Most valuable feature of FR-4x

[Alan Sharkis]

I'm quite content with my acoustic accordion. It has midi in it, which I am using less and less these days. I originally bought the midi because I played with another group of amateurs and I had to make up for instrument sounds that we didn't have in our group. My dealer took several older acoustic accordions I owned and my SEM Ciao reedless in trade for it.

On the other hand, another student of my teacher just bought a Roland FR-4x. It seems she was very impressed with the fact that our teacher, who owns a Petosa with midi, a Roland FR-8x (which was killing him when he had to play strolling jobs) and a Roland FR-4x, which he bought for its weight advantage over the FR-8x and now strolls with it. This other student owns an Ottavianelli for which she traded in an old Zero Sette that was too heavy for her. The Ottavianelli has midi in it that I'm almost certain she never uses. But now she bought a Roland FR-4x and she seems to be most impressed with the number of sounds it has, while I'm thinking that she would be more impressed with the weight advantage.

So, I got to thinking that I'd ask some of you FR-4x owners what you think the most valuable feature of the FR-4x would be as compared to:

a. A Roland 7, 7x or 8x
b. An acoustic accordion with midi
c. An acoustic accordion without midi
d. Some other reedless accordion

By the way, I'm thinking that when I'm advanced enough on PA and Stradella bass that I might want to look into something on the order of a Roland FR-4xb as an introduction to CBA and free bass, but don't tell my wife

Alan

 

[Keymn]

Im quite content with my acoustic accordion. It has midi in it, which I am using less and less these days. I originally bought the midi because I played with another group of amateurs and I had to make up for instrument sounds that we didnt have in our group. My dealer took several older acoustic accordions I owned and my SEM Ciao reedless in trade for it.

On the other hand, another student of my teacher just bought a Roland FR-4x. It seems she was very impressed with the fact that our teacher, who owns a Petosa with midi, a Roland FR-8x (which was killing him when he had to play strolling jobs) and a Roland FR-4x, which he bought for its weight advantage over the FR-8x and now strolls with it. This other student owns an Ottavianelli for which she traded in an old Zero Sette that was too heavy for her. The Ottavianelli has midi in it that Im almost certain she never uses. But now she bought a Roland FR-4x and she seems to be most impressed with the number of sounds it has, while Im thinking that she would be more impressed with the weight advantage.

So, I got to thinking that Id ask some of you FR-4x owners what you think the most valuable feature of the FR-4x would be as compared to:

a. A Roland 7, 7x or 8x
b. An acoustic accordion with midi
c. An acoustic accordion without midi
d. Some other reedless accordion

By the way, Im thinking that when Im advanced enough on PA and Stradella bass that I might want to look into something on the order of a Roland FR-4xb as an introduction to CBA and free bass, but dont tell my wife

Alan

Weight is the factor as far as my choice of 4x. If you like more bells and whistles that you probably never use, go with 8x. I am not super impressed with trying to remember all those sets/registers. To me 5-7 register changes on a gig is good enough for me.

 

[debra]

An important factor is whether you play the PA or CBA version.
The 4X PA version has only 37 keys and that can be limiting. It's bad enough the 7 and 8 series only have 41 keys.
For a CBA player the 4X has plenty of notes already so then the weight advantage may be valuable.
(Take everything I say with a grain of salt as I don't have any V-accordion, but I do know the importance of having many notes on the keyboard.)

 

[JerryPH]

So, I got to thinking that Id ask some of you FR-4x owners what you think the most valuable feature of the FR-4x would be as compared to:

a. A Roland 7, 7x or 8x
b. An acoustic accordion with midi
c. An acoustic accordion without midi
d. Some other reedless accordion

By the way, Im thinking that when Im advanced enough on PA and Stradella bass that I might want to look into something on the order of a Roland FR-4xb as an introduction to CBA and free bass, but dont tell my wife

While I am not a 4X owner, I am an 8X owner, so I hope I am somewhat qualified to toss in my 2 cent opinion.
a. A Roland 7, 7x or 8x
Weight is the main advantage here as in terms of features/functionalities, they are less feature laden than the 8X models. Remember, the 4X is the replacement for the 3X, not the competition for the 8X. Someone once said that the 4X had some sounds that the 8X did not have. When prompted, there was nothing offered that supported it. I believe this was because the sounds were the same, but named differently.

b. An acoustic accordion with midi
b1. Why settle for 1 acoustic accordion when you can have access to 50 or more accordions at the press of a button? The flexibility, variety and range of acoustic accordion sounds is far greater.
b2. While having external MIDI is nice, having it integrated is nicer. You cannot as easily stoll around and the amount of sounds available with the 4X pretty much meets/beats not only the number of sounds that most MIDI modules have, but the quality of these sounds is as good as anything on the market today... and its all integrated in to ONE package. Costs are lower having one unit instead of two, programmability is greater than any MIDI module I know of on the market thanks to the editor and ease of use is far greater as you are learning ONE system instead of two. Of course, the 4X still has the ability to use those external modules, if you have already invested and want to keep them.

c. An acoustic accordion without midi
See answer b1.

d. Some other reedless accordion
I just dont see the maturity, the the popularity out there from ANY other reedless accordion compared to the Roland line (not including perhaps the Bugari Evo, which is basically the same accordion rebadged and dressed up, but the overall sales numbers are still about 100 to 1 or more in favor of the 8X to the Evo, today 2 years after the EVO came out, there is still no dealer in North America!). I believe there is a good reason for that... because they have come closer to the recipe that people like/want more than any other brand. At its peak in the 2010-2015 year range, Roland had enough popularity to host Roland V-accordion competitions around the world. They had the money to pay big name famous accordionists and fly them around the world playing these instruments, sincerely they spent money like water... something NO other company could even come close to dreaming of doing... much less doing it.

Finally price. Sure the Roland are expensive when bought new, but they are still lower in cost than the competition of the few other reedless accordion companies out there (ever see the price of a Cavagnolo reedless?). Being pretty much the best at a lower price is a hard combination to beat.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Keymn]

An important factor is whether you play the PA or CBA version.
The 4X PA version has only 37 keys and that can be limiting. Its bad enough the 7 and 8 series only have 41 keys.
For a CBA player the 4X has plenty of notes already so then the weight advantage may be valuable.
(Take everything I say with a grain of salt as I dont have any V-accordion, but I do know the importance of having many notes on the keyboard.)

On my fr4x, I do miss those extra couple keys. No regrets, it is still light weight and Easily fits in overhead in plane. Have not had a good acoustic in my hand for over 30 years, but think nothing like one over digital. Although, no maintenance on reeds is a plus with V’s. Studio work, I would see no sense in a digital accordion over acoustic. You might as well use a Korg Kronos or similar high end synth for accordion sounds over a “V”.

 

[Geronimo]

In my rather limited experience, the electronics that made most of a difference to me aren't specific to a Roland. A Roland focuses on behaving and sounding similar to an acoustic accordion but that's not a selling point for me: I already have accordions behaving and sounding like accordions. One advantage is that it is prerecorded: recording is tricky and particularly in live situations prone to feedback and noise.

Where the electronics make a difference to me is when I turn on an arranger. I get a good sound texture with transparent voicing, consistent rhythm and great articulation effortlessly, and that gives me something to aim for when working with the acoustic instrument. It reminds me that a number of things make a difference to the listener that I can forget to bring out when letting my execution with the acoustic instrument slide and take the sound for granted rather than sculpting it where that requires conscious effort.

An acoustic accordion is a device intended to replace a full combo, but all of its parts have the same fundamental sound qualities. Any differentiation is not inherent in the instrument but has to be provided by its player. The player sits in an optimal listening position and is conditioned to their instrument's sound. The audience is not as privileged.

I have an FR-1b and I use it for some play and entering notes, but for serious playing its bass side is too limited with 72 basses. I assume that an FR-4x would be better there (but so would be an Fr-2b or FR-3x). What I like about the FR-1b is that it's the lightest of the family, not having amps and speakers.

 

[Keymn]

In my rather limited experience, the electronics that made most of a difference to me arent specific to a Roland. A Roland focuses on behaving and sounding similar to an acoustic accordion but thats not a selling point for me: I already have accordions behaving and sounding like accordions. One advantage is that it is prerecorded: recording is tricky and particularly in live situations prone to feedback and noise.

Where the electronics make a difference to me is when I turn on an arranger. I get a good sound texture with transparent voicing, consistent rhythm and great articulation effortlessly, and that gives me something to aim for when working with the acoustic instrument. It reminds me that a number of things make a difference to the listener that I can forget to bring out when letting my execution with the acoustic instrument slide and take the sound for granted rather than sculpting it where that requires conscious effort.

An acoustic accordion is a device intended to replace a full combo, but all of its parts have the same fundamental sound qualities. Any differentiation is not inherent in the instrument but has to be provided by its player. The player sits in an optimal listening position and is conditioned to their instruments sound. The audience is not as privileged.

I have an FR-1b and I use it for some play and entering notes, but for serious playing its bass side is too limited with 72 basses. I assume that an FR-4x would be better there (but so would be an Fr-2b or FR-3x). What I like about the FR-1b is that its the lightest of the family, not having amps and speakers.

Everytime you buy a digital instrument, it will soon be changed by an upgraded model. I see this mostly in the arranger and the reedless accordion market. My clients aren’t aware of what model I have. When they want an accordion player they get one, not a specific reedless model accordion player. I do not make a living selling a specific brand, just like to perform and put smiles on faces. So Dust off that old model or buy that new or used one. Result is fun and self satisfaction.

 

[debra]

...
Everytime you buy a digital instrument, it will soon be changed by an upgraded model. I see this mostly in the arranger and the reedless accordion market. My clients aren’t aware of what model I have. When they want an accordion player they get one, not a specific reedless model accordion player. I do not make a living selling a specific brand, just like to perform and put smiles on faces. So Dust off that old model or buy that new or used one. Result is fun and self satisfaction.

Very true about many electronic things. The recent V-accordions all sound acceptable to me, especially through good external speakers. The first however... to me the FR7 (not the 7B) sounded awful as an accordion. The 7B was a big step forwards. The 8-year old electronics in my car, the TV in my bedroom, and many other things (some a lot older too) all perform well enough. My camera from 2012 shoots very nice images and my phone from around that era still makes calls and even does internet well enough... No reason why only the very latest digital accordions should be acceptable.

 

[Keymn]

...
Everytime you buy a digital instrument, it will soon be changed by an upgraded model. I see this mostly in the arranger and the reedless accordion market. My clients aren’t aware of what model I have. When they want an accordion player they get one, not a specific reedless model accordion player. I do not make a living selling a specific brand, just like to perform and put smiles on faces. So Dust off that old model or buy that new or used one. Result is fun and self satisfaction.

Very true about many electronic things. The recent V-accordions all sound acceptable to me, especially through good external speakers. The first however... to me the FR7 (not the 7B) sounded awful as an accordion. The 7B was a big step forwards. The 8-year old electronics in my car, the TV in my bedroom, and many other things (some a lot older too) all perform well enough. My camera from 2012 shoots very nice images and my phone from around that era still makes calls and even does internet well enough... No reason why only the very latest digital accordions should be acceptable.

I played the FR7 for years. One of my best investments. I never did much editing on it too. Used many of the factory settings. Not so on the Fr4x. But after making my own edits, surpasses the FR7 in sound and versatility.
The new owner of my fr7, loves It! Contacts me frequently on his satisfaction.

 

[Geronimo]

Very true about many electronic things. The recent V-accordions all sound acceptable to me, especially through good external speakers. The first however... to me the FR7 (not the 7B) sounded awful as an accordion. The 7B was a big step forwards.

You presumably mean FR-7x? FR-7b is just the CBA version of the FR-7. There is also quite a difference between sounding like an accordion and feeling like an accordion. As a listener, you dont get to figure out whether the fine details come from the actions of the person recording the samples or the person invoking them.

 

[debra]

Very true about many electronic things. The recent V-accordions all sound acceptable to me, especially through good external speakers. The first however... to me the FR7 (not the 7B) sounded awful as an accordion. The 7B was a big step forwards.

You presumably mean FR-7x? FR-7b is just the CBA version of the FR-7. There is also quite a difference between sounding like an accordion and feeling like an accordion. As a listener, you dont get to figure out whether the fine details come from the actions of the person recording the samples or the person invoking them.

Sorry, typo. Indeed it is the 7x that is better than the 7. The 7 and 7b are the same (but b is for buttons) and likewise the 7x and 7xb, 8x and 8xb and 4x and 4xb. Especially in the smaller models the button version is much more useful than the PA version because of the number of notes on the keyboard.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

An important factor is whether you play the PA or CBA version.
The 4X PA version has only 37 keys and that can be limiting. Its bad enough the 7 and 8 series only have 41 keys.
For a CBA player the 4X has plenty of notes already so then the weight advantage may be valuable.
(Take everything I say with a grain of salt as I dont have any V-accordion, but I do know the importance of having many notes on the keyboard.)

There are many people who say that the the PA should have continued with 45 notes, which, although they are still being made are usually not stocked and must be special-ordered. On the other hand, there is an octave switch on the 4x for those who need those extra four keys.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

So, I got to thinking that Id ask some of you FR-4x owners what you think the most valuable feature of the FR-4x would be as compared to:

a. A Roland 7, 7x or 8x
b. An acoustic accordion with midi
c. An acoustic accordion without midi
d. Some other reedless accordion

By the way, Im thinking that when Im advanced enough on PA and Stradella bass that I might want to look into something on the order of a Roland FR-4xb as an introduction to CBA and free bass, but dont tell my wife

While I am not a 4X owner, I am an 8X owner, so I hope I am somewhat qualified to toss in my 2 cent opinion.
a. A Roland 7, 7x or 8x
Weight is the main advantage here as in terms of features/functionalities, they are less feature laden than the 8X models. Remember, the 4X is the replacement for the 3X, not the competition for the 8X. Someone once said that the 4X had some sounds that the 8X did not have. When prompted, there was nothing offered that supported it. I believe this was because the sounds were the same, but named differently.

b. An acoustic accordion with midi
b1. Why settle for 1 acoustic accordion when you can have access to 50 or more accordions at the press of a button? The flexibility, variety and range of acoustic accordion sounds is far greater.
b2. While having external MIDI is nice, having it integrated is nicer. You cannot as easily stoll around and the amount of sounds available with the 4X pretty much meets/beats not only the number of sounds that most MIDI modules have, but the quality of these sounds is as good as anything on the market today... and its all integrated in to ONE package. Costs are lower having one unit instead of two, programmability is greater than any MIDI module I know of on the market thanks to the editor and ease of use is far greater as you are learning ONE system instead of two. Of course, the 4X still has the ability to use those external modules, if you have already invested and want to keep them.

c. An acoustic accordion without midi
See answer b1.

d. Some other reedless accordion
I just dont see the maturity, the the popularity out there from ANY other reedless accordion compared to the Roland line (not including perhaps the Bugari Evo, which is basically the same accordion rebadged and dressed up, but the overall sales numbers are still about 100 to 1 or more in favor of the 8X to the Evo, today 2 years after the EVO came out, there is still no dealer in North America!). I believe there is a good reason for that... because they have come closer to the recipe that people like/want more than any other brand. At its peak in the 2010-2015 year range, Roland had enough popularity to host Roland V-accordion competitions around the world. They had the money to pay big name famous accordionists and fly them around the world playing these instruments, sincerely they spent money like water... something NO other company could even come close to dreaming of doing... much less doing it.

Finally price. Sure the Roland are expensive when bought new, but they are still lower in cost than the competition of the few other reedless accordion companies out there (ever see the price of a Cavagnolo reedless?). Being pretty much the best at a lower price is a hard combination to beat.

Just my 2 cents.

Dont sell yourself short, Jerry. Thats a very valuable 2 cents. I never really strolled, so for me the internal midi works perfectly fine, and I still have the ability to hook up another module if I want more or better sounds. Which takes me to another point. Yes, the Roland sound have their supporters, but also their critics. I, for one, find the brasses, particularly the trumpet, a little thin, but as you pointed out, theres a lot of potential for setting them according to individual taste via programming. But programming takes time, patience, and maybe even lost revenue, and I know some people who would not put up with that. (Not me, If I ever get a Roland, Id enjoy learning to program it and modify its sounds.)

Thanks.

Alan

 

[Geronimo]

b. An acoustic accordion with midi
b1. Why settle for 1 acoustic accordion when you can have access to 50 or more accordions at the press of a button? The flexibility, variety and range of acoustic accordion sounds is far greater.

Well, this argument does not look half as convincing if we try to apply it to a virtual violin where you can have access to 50 or more violins at the press of a button. Turns out that people are fine having access to a single actual violin thats good.

Well, most people. There are some that resell their Stradivarius and get another one because the first one doesnt fit their style too well. But you dont really see people cycling through a set of instruments when playing different pieces.

Now accordions are different because they come in many different configurations. For example, with different bass and/or chord octave configurations. My own rather limited FR-1b has exactly one bass/chord octave configuration per accordion. The Midi electronics of my acoustic Excelsior have 25 bass octave configurations and 3 chord octave configurations (though no registers in the Midi). My main acoustic instrument (admittedly an exception) has 20 chord octave configurations. Yes, some of those can be helpful. This is of course not as much a statement about electronics in general but the choices of Roland (Ive not rechecked with every model but glanced through a few manuals, though definitely not the FR-4x). It may have something to do with Roland sampling real accordions. More than a single octave configuration just cannot be sampled on an actual straightforward Stradella bass instrument. However, if you are actually feeding some other expander and/or working with orchestral sounds, not having that choice can be limiting.

b2. While having external MIDI is nice, having it integrated is nicer.

You dont mean integrated MIDI (how else but integrated would MIDI be?) but an integrated MIDI expander. And yes.

You cannot as easily stoll around and the amount of sounds available with the 4X pretty much meets/beats not only the number of sounds that most MIDI modules have, but the quality of these sounds is as good as anything on the market today...

Uh, you are speaking about integrated speakers. My FR-1b doesnt have them. Strolling around without cable either way would imply some wireless sender and receiver for me. Using an acoustic accordion would result in some cognitive dissonance unless I chose sounds topped off with acoustic sounds (you can integrate, like when using a harmonica sound, or combine like with Cordovox style sound choices). The problem when strolling around is that having the same saxophone sound out of your fixed speakers and your accordion still results in cognitive dissonance: people see an accordion and want to listen to an accordion. Its as stupid as that. Wear drag and sing a thundering bass (or vice versa) and theyll complain, too.

So when you are restricted to using accordion sounds anyway because of audience prejudices, an acoustic one is not as bad a deal as you make it sound.

and its all integrated in to ONE package. Costs are lower having one unit instead of two, programmability is greater than any MIDI module I know of on the market thanks to the editor and ease of use is far greater as you are learning ONE system instead of two.

MIDI expander, you mean. Plus layering. Basically what an MS-20 did 25 years ago (though at quite lower level regarding the accordion sound possibilities). I have an MS-40 which is a MIDI arranger, similar vintage. A Roland accordion does not do the arrangement thing. Which is a sensible line to draw, but it makes the its all integrated into ONE package argument shakier.

d. Some other reedless accordion
I just dont see the maturity, the the popularity out there from ANY other reedless accordion compared to the Roland line (not including perhaps the Bugari Evo, which is basically the same accordion rebadged and dressed up, but the overall sales numbers are still about 100 to 1 or more in favor of the 8X to the Evo, today 2 years after the EVO came out, there is still no dealer in North America!). I believe there is a good reason for that... because they have come closer to the recipe that people like/want more than any other brand. At its peak in the 2010-2015 year range, Roland had enough popularity to host Roland V-accordion competitions around the world. They had the money to pay big name famous accordionists and fly them around the world playing these instruments, sincerely they spent money like water... something NO other company could even come close to dreaming of doing... much less doing it.

Rolands late founder was invested in the V accordion idea. That most definitely made a large difference in development and perception. Lots of focus went into copying look/feel/behavior of actual acoustic accordions (rather than focusing on a sort-of generic controller in accordion form) rather than more expansive MIDI/sound functionality. The idea was to actually replace acoustic accordions. There is a lot of marketing speak involved here as well, but overall this large effort and gample was more successful than those of a lot of competitors.

Finally price. Sure the Roland are expensive when bought new, but they are still lower in cost than the competition of the few other reedless accordion companies out there (ever see the price of a Cavagnolo reedless?). Being pretty much the best at a lower price is a hard combination to beat.

I dont think comparison plays much into this because the price range is so different. Its a bit like the MacOS/MSDOS dichotomy with computers. In the end, the main criterion for the vast majority of users remains the price point, and deployment numbers result in the ability to do further development. And Roland certainly did not start out with a similar train wreck as Microsoft did regarding operating systems.

So I dont agree with all of your assessment, but neither does the market, and I dont think even yourself: you keep your Morino VIM (or similar) for reasons more than just nostalgia, though certainly you have plenty of reason to be nostalgic about it.

 

[JerryPH]

... and I dont think even yourself: you keep your Morino VIM (or similar) for reasons more than just nostalgia, though certainly you have plenty of reason to be nostalgic about it.

David, there is a lot I would normally respond to, but I dont think it will matter, but I will say this one small thing, and I will phrase it as diplomatically as I can... there is no way you can possibly know what I *think* unless I say so, because every time you presume to try to do so... you do it incorrectly.

I have a Morino because it was a gift of love from my parents, and it is from a part of my life long gone that I cherish. I have a V-accordion today because *I* chose to have and play one today. Had I wanted another acoustic, I would have had it, no doubts there.

You seem to feel the need to over-guide or correct me in everything, or speak for me not just here but in previous communications as well. You presume to know my mind. Please stop this, not only is it annoying as heck, it has nothing to do with this thread. Please take note that I am 58 years old, I have my own mind and opinions and am entitled to them.

Thank-you.

(apologies to Alan for pulling things off topic).

Back on topic... up until there was one released for the 8X, my biggest feature that I loved about the 4X was its editor. I was so jealous of it! :lol:

In terms of fewer or more treble keys... totally a non-issue unless you style demands it, and if it does, well, then you either learn to work around it or find another solution. It is fairly safe to say that most 4X owners may miss the extra keys, but it doesnt stop them from using it. And some dont even notice the fewer keys.

 

[Keymn]

New technology on arrangers and digital accordions is guaranteed to happen. When I bought my Korg PA3x arranger I was pleased. Then when the Korg PA4x came out with direct real-time access to external Zip/hard drive for unlimited styles, that blew me away! It always happens, a new product has a feature that is only unique to it. That is why a BK-7m is not an option, in my case, for compactness. Stay with what I have until something in a compact arranger comes along like in the PA4x format (maybe a long wait?).
As far as the accordion, it is what you are comfortable with. Strolling is probably good with high quality acoustic or Fr4x/FR8x. If I was hooked to a arranger, an FR1x would be my first choice. If you can deal with the less keys. I think the FR1x might sound good too Strolling? But Have not tried one.
My Korg PA3x arranger has some nice varieties of accordion sounds and would make any midi accordion sound good.
This is just an opinion from an almost 66 senior...

 

[Alan Sharkis]

... and I dont think even yourself: you keep your Morino VIM (or similar) for reasons more than just nostalgia, though certainly you have plenty of reason to be nostalgic about it.

David, there is a lot I would normally respond to, but I dont think it will matter, but I will say this one small thing, and I will phrase it as diplomatically as I can... there is no way you can possibly know what I *think* unless I say so, because every time you presume to try to do so... you do it incorrectly.

I have a Morino because it was a gift of love from my parents, and it is from a part of my life long gone that I cherish. I have a V-accordion today because *I* chose to have and play one today. Had I wanted another acoustic, I would have had it, no doubts there.

You seem to feel the need to over-guide or correct me in everything, or speak for me not just here but in previous communications as well. You presume to know my mind. Please stop this, not only is it annoying as heck, it has nothing to do with this thread. Please take note that I am 58 years old, I have my own mind and opinions and am entitled to them.

Thank-you.

(apologies to Alan for pulling things off topic).

Back on topic... up until there was one released for the 8X, my biggest feature that I loved about the 4X was its editor. I was so jealous of it! :lol:

In terms of fewer or more treble keys... totally a non-issue unless you style demands it, and if it does, well, then you either learn to work around it or find another solution. It is fairly safe to say that most 4X owners may miss the extra keys, but it doesnt stop them from using it. And some dont even notice the fewer keys.

Jerry,

No apology needed. What is going on as far as taking a thread off-topic is typical of all discussion groups. But my advice to all, no particular names mentioned is:

PLAY NICE, CHILDREN!

Alan

 

[Keymn]

We do get off the thread sometimes, but I seem to learn more when that happens<EMOJI seq="1f913">?</EMOJI>.