Korg FISA SUPREMA

[JerryPH]

so i still call upon KORG, do a full and complete reveal of the solution,
not just pat us on the head and give us an extra cookie before
tucking this in for the night

If you feel that strongly about it, why don't you reach out to them?
I've not seen any of the FISA owners feel such a need, but if you do, this would be my suggestion.

 

[breezybellows]

so we can say, without a doubt, an accordion has
the ability to resist being ripped apart
AS A CORE FUNCTION

when Hyundai first came onto the automotive market
in the USA, with their first product in the "car" category,
if their wheels had begun to fall off after a week or month
of being driven, that would be the equivalent to this Korg issue,
because ROLLING ON WHEELS is a core function of a car

Cars? They have recalls like this all the time. Engine failures on brand new Toyotas? That's the most reliable car maker.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a60992514/toyota-tundra-lexus-lx-engine-recall/

Wheels falling off? That has happened as well.

How about cars automatically accelerating? Seat belts not mounted properly? We've had recalls for all these problems.

 

[debra]

Cars? They have recalls like this all the time. Engine failures on brand new Toyotas? That's the most reliable car maker.

...

Sadly, recalls are essentially non-existent with (acoustic) accordions, even for serious flaws such as the sticky pallets found in essentially all accordions produced in Italy during a brief (about 3 months) period long ago, leading to what is commonly known as the "Klebemorino" (but happened to many other accordions besides Hohner Morinos, made by Excelsior).
And I still suspect that there was also an issue with reed production during some period as well. I have encountered accordions from I guess a period somewhere between 1980 and 1990 with reeds from different manufacturers, developing a flaw that many of the reeds start a few cents too high, then go down to a stable frequency, until you put the accordion away for an hour or more and then play again, with the reeds starting to high again... It may have been a bad batch of sheets/rolls of steel for the reed tongues. Nobody has acknowledged a source for the problem, but it is common enough to require a log of reeds to be replaced. It's not just a matter of old age. Reeds from the 1960's have no such problem.

 

[JerryPH]

Sadly, recalls are essentially non-existent with (acoustic) accordions,..

Paul, do you ever recall any event which caused any kind of a recall, even on a single accordion?

 

[breezybellows]

Sadly, recalls are essentially non-existent with (acoustic) accordions, even for serious flaws such as the sticky pallets found in essentially all accordions produced in Italy during a brief (about 3 months) period long ago, leading to what is commonly known as the "Klebemorino" (but happened to many other accordions besides Hohner Morinos, made by Excelsior).
And I still suspect that there was also an issue with reed production during some period as well. I have encountered accordions from I guess a period somewhere between 1980 and 1990 with reeds from different manufacturers, developing a flaw that many of the reeds start a few cents too high, then go down to a stable frequency, until you put the accordion away for an hour or more and then play again, with the reeds starting to high again... It may have been a bad batch of sheets/rolls of steel for the reed tongues. Nobody has acknowledged a source for the problem, but it is common enough to require a log of reeds to be replaced. It's not just a matter of old age. Reeds from the 1960's have no such problem.

Yes, exactly—that's why I find it ridiculous that Korg is being judged by a different standard. They're actually handling things quite well.

The lack of recalls from accordion manufacturers doesn’t mean there aren’t issues. There have been plenty of posts along the lines of, “Back in my day, things were better.” As technology becomes more complex and gains more dependencies, there are simply more points of failure. It's always a trade-off between the speed of innovation and the risk of breakdowns.

 

[dak]

And I still suspect that there was also an issue with reed production during some period as well. I have encountered accordions from I guess a period somewhere between 1980 and 1990 with reeds from different manufacturers, developing a flaw that many of the reeds start a few cents too high, then go down to a stable frequency, until you put the accordion away for an hour or more and then play again, with the reeds starting to high again... It may have been a bad batch of sheets/rolls of steel for the reed tongues.

Sounds more like a rivet problem to me, to be honest. And riveting would tend to be fairly uniform across manufacturers, with new/time-saving machines/materials being adopted fast.

 

[debra]

Sounds more like a rivet problem to me, to be honest. And riveting would tend to be fairly uniform across manufacturers, with new/time-saving machines/materials being adopted fast.

Hammering the rivets was of course the first thing I tried. Sadly it had no effect, every time I tried. And it happens with machine reeds, tipo-a-mano and a mano alike... It does not happen with accordions from the past 2 decades, and does not happen either with accordions from before 1970... but only some period in between. People whose problem-accordions I had in for maintenance often bought them used and don't know how old the instruments are, so I can only guess that it's between 1980 and 1990 (maybe 1995)... It likely has to do with certain batches of the reed steel.

 

[dak]

Hammering the rivets was of course the first thing I tried. Sadly it had no effect, every time I tried.

When the rivet has expanded to unreliably mess with hole and reed, hammering will make things worse. You'd have to flex them off and replace them. I think some of the old big round Hohner rivets were slightly concave so that they did not press at all near the hole, but in a ring around it. The rationale behind that design probably got lost when Hohner ceased reed production.

 

[Dingo40]

How about cars automatically accelerating? Seat belts not mounted properly? We've had recalls for all these problems.

I had one, of a batch of cars, where the steering lock would activate by itself while driving. And then you couldn't unlock it at all.
It happened to me on a New Year's Eve: luckily in a shopping centre car park whilst parking.
But, for some others, it happened on a windy mountainous road with sheer drops into the sea!

 

[dak]

I had one, of a batch of cars, where the steering lock would activate by itself while driving. And then you couldn't unlock it at all.
It happened to me on a New Year's Eve: luckily in a shopping centre car park whilst parking.
But, for some others, it happened on a windy mountainous road with sheer drops into the sea!

Reminds me of a no-recall situation with a friend of mine: he was on a highway and needed to access the glove compartment which was locked. He knew that the ignition on this car would stay put when pulling the key, so he pulled it to unlock the glove compartment. Then the steering lock engaged in a slight curve. He got the car key back out of the glove compartment lock and into ignition before the slight curve ended. He also got out a lot of sweat and adrenaline.

 

[breezybellows]

I had one, of a batch of cars, where the steering lock would activate by itself while driving. And then you couldn't unlock it at all.
It happened to me on a New Year's Eve: luckily in a shopping centre car park whilst parking.
But, for some others, it happened on a windy mountainous road with sheer drops into the sea!

My Tesla Full Self driving (full self destruction maybe) tried to kill me by applying slamming I'm the brakes while doing 70mph on the highway. There was no one in front of me and thankfully no one behind me.

 

[JerryPH]

My Tesla Full Self driving (full self destruction maybe) tried to kill me by applying slamming I'm the brakes while doing 70mph on the highway. There was no one in front of me and thankfully no one behind me.

LOL... i had something similar though not as dramatic an event with a new Toyota Corolla that I had rented when I went to visit my friend Ed in Florida. The car refused to keep a steady speed while cruise was activated... something had to have been miscalibrated and it hit the brakes hard each time a car passed us on a multi-lane highway. Maddening as heck!

Some C5 Corvettes had the steering wheel lock activating when the car was in motion... I solved that for $20 with a device that completely deactivates the steering wheel locking mechanism once the car is started (It also had that stupid 1-4 skip shift, but I programmed that out with an aftermarket tuner... and while there, increased the power and highway MPG just because I knew how )

 

[John M]

your observations and conclusions are valid

for over half a century, line outputs have been pretty
much standardized across the board in the electronics
industry.. literally ALL musical instruments have the common
L/R/Mono-Stereo output scheme and all of them MUST be
within a whisker of each other in terms of output power

otherwise an entire industry of wireless audio gear or line
inputs on powered speakers or chromatic tuners or
recording devices and everything else would be made untenable

so you checking in an A/B test through a typical professionally used
PA system the Korg vs a similar Roland was a very legit test, and no
amount of excuses can explain your results away

something was definitely wrong

i hope you get a chance when your buddy gets it back to repeat
the A/B comparison, and i hope you can narrow it down.. it is
very ,much worth looking into.. Your experience as a gigging Pro
and the level of gear you are known to typically use makes you the
perfect person to make these kinds of comparisons, for real life usage,
and then to report and figure out what the problem is.. if it will be
something significant that a warning flag needs to go up, or if it
is just something odd, a one off problem, that this specific Fisa
suffers from and how to take care of getting it up to "normal" again

your observation doesn't need explained away.. it needs pursued
to a conclusion.. so thanks for noticing and hope you get a chance
to run it down sometime

When Steve gets his Fisa back, I will contact him and see if we can get together and do a comparison of the 8X and Fisa through my Bose L1 Pro8.

 

[KeysFla]

When Steve gets his Fisa back, I will contact him and see if we can get together and do a comparison of the 8X and Fisa through my Bose L1 Pro8.

That Bose is an excellent system. I have the L1pro 16. Puts out quite a punch…the accordion preset works well when I plug in Korg arranger and FR4x. Warm sound. Looking forward to hear it on my FISA C.

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

About wanting to know the exact cause for the breakage... Let me put a recent example: as you know, we had a large blackout in Spain last Monday. Some people will be happy just knowing it has been cared for and won't happen again (well, that is debatable ) and life for them will go on. But other people, myself included, would like to know why did it happen in full technical detail.

Yes, the case is pretty different. But people are different. Some just want a solution and play. Others want an explanation. Even if, like me, still don't have the instrument in question!

On my defense, I am an engineer, work all day fixing electronic things, and I want to know why a failure has happened, both for my curiosity and learning, but also to instruct people don't do whatever could have caused the damage again, to prevent another similar breakage.

Please, don't take this in a bad way, I am trying to explain the logic of my reasoning

 

[JerryPH]

About wanting to know the exact cause for the breakage... Let me put a recent example: as you know, we had a large blackout in Spain last Monday. Some people will be happy just knowing it has been cared for and won't happen again (well, that is debatable ) and life for them will go on. But other people, myself included, would like to know why did it happen in full technical detail.

OK, let's put my view on it.
Is this info necessary for your quality of life or is the return of electricity really all that truly matters?
How would it improve things for you... short of just feeling better that you know the intimate details of what was done?

I was in Europe last year when they had that terrible storm system and rivers were overflowing, houses were being carried away and highways washed out. I honestly could not care what caused it or how they could have prevented it, I just needed to know where to go to avoid it and knew what part of Europe to go (moved my vacation from Austria and travelled to the Czech Republic where the effects were minimal by that time), to be safe.

There will always be people that want to know everything, be that for curiosity or for use against the company in the future (yeah, there are actually people out there that LOOK for the bad in everything and don't care about the more important things... like simply letting the company fix it and move on!).

Now, this is only peripherally related to the topic, and close to your instance, but it shows what I believe is the direction of the majority of people.

It's merely nice to know what caused this issue for Korg and what was done to address it... but really, unless you are on the KORG team, basically it's none of anyone's business. I sure (as a company that was in a similar situation), would never want to share what we did to address it, but I would do what is needed to get it fixed... what is important, is that Korg stepped up, fixed it and did it fast and as an added courtesy, extended the warranty to start from when the new units arrived to boot!

 

[skopaczewski]

When Steve gets his Fisa back, I will contact him and see if we can get together and do a comparison of the 8X and Fisa through my Bose L1 Pro8.

I'm definitely looking forward to another session, John!

 

[Ventura]

the Sensei does teach and explain what is BEHIND a move
or a sequence or a philosophy, because to understand is to
improve your ability and skill.. any mindless savage can improve
from repetition alone, but will they ever truly get beyond average ?

does it help a young person to drive safely under dangerous conditions
if they understand centrifugal force as it applies to their front tires
on a curve in the rain or on gravel ? or is this information they
do not need ?

and the over and over pretense that it's none of anyone's business
or that it is unfair to a Manufacturer to hold them to some higher
standard.. no-one is saying that except you guys..

i am saying that perception affects sales.. one liar starts a
rumor that Excelsiors are now made in China and 5 years from now
someone who always has to have something to say to everything
on a newsgroup somewhere will warn a person who is thinking
about buying an Excelsior that hey.. did you know they are made
in China ?

so do you head in the sand people really think anything less
than an absolute full and complete newsblitz that covers every
conceivable point will regain the positive and trusted level they
had 2 months ago ? or the sales momentum ? SALES require
a leap of faith in that price point which is based upon confidence
and trust as well as features and benefits

and don't any of you care at all about resale value being preserved ?

perception is everything.. hard detailed facts are the truth that
you can hold onto and stand on

many people have memorized hundreds of different Jazz progressions
and can drop into playing a flurry of perfect notes that seem amazing
to the average listener, but that is nothing compared to someone like Cory
who actually understands what is BEHIND all that jazz and can therefore
APPLY it to everything from how he breathes to how he squeezes
to Mary's little Lamb

"yeah, they fixed it" is not enough

here is a what if..
if they make a full disclosure so that everyone can know for sure
what was done and then we all shake our heads yes, we agree that's
gotta be the solution, we understand it now..
AND THEN
a month from now someone rips a Fisa in two on a gig
the general public would probably be able to go back to
the drawing board with KORG and try try again

but if

all we get is a pat on the head and then
a month from now someone rips a Fisa in two on a gig
the product will be dead.. period.. dead

 

[JerryPH]

the Sensei does teach and explain what is BEHIND a move
or a sequence or a philosophy, because to understand is to
improve your ability and skill.. any mindless savage can improve
from repetition alone, but will they ever truly get beyond average ?

Now you are speaking my language... as someone that has been doing one form of martial arts since I was pre-teen, I see a huge hole in your example. Yes, a teacher teaches all that you say. Though how he is managing his school/business or how he is deciding who is to get the next belt, or even when/if I am due for my next promotion... that's NOT my business. I stick to my business, which is learning, practicing, improving myself and helping my fellow student to improve when they are my partner, when they are trusting me not to choke them unconscious or break their arm or leg as we strive to improve.

and the over and over pretense that it's none of anyone's business
or that it is unfair to a Manufacturer to hold them to some higher
standard.. no-one is saying that except you guys..

It is the job of each business to run THEIR OWN business as they see fit. If someone doesn't like that, they are free to shop elsewhere.

i am saying that perception affects sales..

No, you are saying that you feel that you have some right to know how people run their business or tell them what they should be doing... but that's not how things work. We all vote with our pocketbooks, we either like a product, or not. We get zero say in how they design, build or sell or handle any internal affair, that is their job. Our job is to buy or not, our complete responsibility as consumers ends there.

here is a what if..
if they make a full disclosure so that everyone can know for sure

... which they did, they said, "hey we have an issue, we are working on addressing it... here are the people that are affected" and then THEY reached out to those people because not everyone lives on the net... and handled it and then extended the warranty to day 1.

They don't owe anyone (and this is the part you are just not catching), anything more other than fixing it. No business that I have ever heard of did that, it is both ridiculous to expect it... more so to continually think it is right to demand it in a public forum... if you want that, I will say it again... YOU reach out to them, demand what you are stating here, let us know what they tell you.

AND THEN
a month from now someone rips a Fisa in two on a gig
the general public would probably be able to go back to
the drawing board with KORG and try try again

OK, let's play devil's advocate... so if it happens again, and let's make it worse, ALL THE SAME people that had units replaced with new ones all have the same issue once more ALL have the units break in the same location... did knowing in nauseating detail how they handled it the first time make ANY difference? Of course not. Every big boy and big girl who dished out the money has to deal with it and if the company mishandles that, they lose business, possibly risk losing it completely. That is not the consumer's responsibility.

One of the greatest lessons I learned in life is to not play the "what if" game.
- what if it rains tomorrow
- what if I don't have a job tomorrow
- what if my wife is cheating and leaves me
- what if my Korg breaks tomorrow

What a huge waste of time and energy! Fewer things in life with suck the joy out of getting up in the morning than playing this very dumb game. If it happens, DEAL WITH IT... or not by asking for a refund or not making the purchase.

Until then, it hasn't happened... so WHY WORRY?
I look forward to hearing about your discussion with Luigi or Matt.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

I get curious about a lot of things. It's in my nature. Maybe, if I had a Korg Fisa Suprema, I'd be curious about what caused the bellows separation problem and how Korg fixed it -- maybe not. What makes me wonder is the spontaneous register change that some people reported happening with their Korg. On the other hand, I don't get curious about the workings and design of some of the things I do have. It's hard to explain what motivates my curiosity or lack thereof.

When I was a teenager, I was fascinated by the technology behind the subway system I used to get to and from high school every day. By contrast, it never crossed my mind to be curious about the buses I rode to college every day.

Go figure.

What I do maintain is that another person's curiosity or lack thereof is their business, and I'm not going to impose my sense of right or wrong about it.