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"Italianies" and "Germanies"

  • Thread starter Thread starter Orma
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Orma

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Just wondering really.
As the chances of playing a top draw (Italian or the like) accordion are based on the "Premium Bonds strategy, i.e. extremely unlikely, I was wondering...
Is the cost related to real time performance and improvement for the average ( or indeed less than average) Joe or Josephine in the musical street.
When I've seen such instruments in average hands the "Italianies" (Rolls) don't seem or sound that much better than old "Germanies" ( Fords).

Is it...."metaphorical clothes maketh the man" or "all the gear-no idea"

Musings really...nothing more.
 
There's a lot there I didn't follow, but it may be useful to note that Italy has over the years made a lot of the world's accordions, in every price range, in dozens of different factories. There might be a more meaningful comparison behind this, between two actual accordion models?
 
The top of the range of weltmeister accordions which are terribly expensive I believe are just as good as many Italian accordions. I have had mid range Weltmesters which are of good quality and sound. Though for the very best, top of the range Italian are unbeatable and will cost an arm and a leg. The world capital for these accordion are mostly in and around Castelfidardo by the Adriatic. I beleve the excellence acheived from the many accordion factories that compete with each other in Castelfidardo and probably nick each others employees for information for manufacturing techniques and tips for improvements.
 
as I understand it you say that Italians dominate the art , the Germans are tenacious and technicians .
 
I think the point is a good player can make just about any in-tune accordion sound good.. the same player will get the best out of a great box and sound ...brilliant.
A mediocre player wont be able to get the best out of a great box.. so will still sound mediocre... with perhaps better tone.
Further - the theory is that best German boxes were/are either partially or wholly made in Italy...
 
donn said:
Theres a lot there I didnt follow, but it may be useful to note that Italy has over the years made a lot of the worlds accordions, in every price range, in dozens of different factories. There might be a more meaningful comparison behind this, between two actual accordion models?
Click to expand...


My point was not about brands but whether spending thousands for a high performance instrument was worthwhile if your skills were limited.
Rather like a beginner driving a Ferrari. Interesting stuff about the different factories though- I wasnt aware that was the case
 
Soulsaver said:
I think the point is a good player can make just about any in-tune accordion sound good.. the same player will get the best out of a great box and sound ...brilliant.
A mediocre player wont be able to get the best out of a great box.. so will still sound mediocre... with perhaps better tone.
Further - the theory is that best German boxes were/are either partially or wholly made in Italy...
Click to expand...

Thats interesting Soulsaver- if I understand what you are saying, the benefit of spending out on a top of the range box is not necessarily an aid to better and faster progress.
 
morenito said:
as I understand it you say that Italians dominate the art , the Germans are tenacious and technicians .
Click to expand...
I dont know about that. The perceived wisdom is that Italian boxes are superior. Are they worth the high outlay for an average player though?
 
goldtopia said:
The top of the range of weltmeister accordions which are terribly expensive I believe are just as good as many Italian accordions. I have had mid range Weltmesters which are of good quality and sound. Though for the very best, top of the range Italian are unbeatable and will cost an arm and a leg. The world capital for these accordion are mostly in and around Castelfidardo by the Adriatic. I beleve the excellence acheived from the many accordion factories that compete with each other in Castelfidardo and probably nick each others employees for information for manufacturing techniques and tips for improvements.
Click to expand...


Funnily enough Ive been told that new(ish) Weltmeister are great value for money, and not just for beginners. Ive seen some fantastic players using these. Though to be honest I wouldnt be able to tell you which models they were.
 
Accordions have been for many years have been produced in the US, Germany & Italy. During the so called "Golden Age of Accordions" models were perfected and advanced by US and German makers. In the 50's US accordion firms made the decision to move production for mainly economic reasons to the craftsman's in Italy. The updated US accordion designs and Italian craftsmanship was as we now know "a marriage made in heaven". German accordion makers such as Weltmeister have continued to produce instruments (for at a time in the communist block) and now in the free world of mediocre quality. The 100+ year old German firm of Hohner still makes their main line of mediocre accordions in Germany but their top of the line models are made in Italy and their bottom lines are made in China. The occasional accordionist will be very happy and put good use to a mediocre made accordion. The Professional always uses a an Italian made box.
 
I have not heard of any Hohmer accordions still being made in Germany. The idea of moving to China was to save money by lowering production costs which I think was a big mistake though it seems Weltmeister have beneftited from it by taking on some ex Hohner employees. I know America also makes accordions of which most have Italian names which suggest the makers were originally from Italy. American Wurlitzers (Idont know if its spelt right) I think were famous for organs and juke boxes and also ventured into making accordions, I have never seen one but I know they exist because there is one in a book that I have.Even the name Wurlizter sounds German which may be its origins or from where the originator came from. Even NASA consists of hundreds of employees with foreign sounding names.
 
The top Hohner models are still made to order at the factory in Trossingen, Germany.
Not in China.
Only the low end range models are made in China.

You can read the information here on a German accordion forum, by the member Musikerclaus HCA Hohner Akkordeons:
http://www.musiker-board.de/threads/produktionsende-hohner-gola.577231/

If anyone wants to check this is still the case in 2015, best is to ask directly to the Hohner factory accordion repair service team:
http://de.playhohner.com/service/hohner-service/akkordeon-service/


I think the Italian accordions are priced according to the top quality the Italians deliver for their mid range and top range models.
In my opinion good European quality accordions are worth the money.
If we would have all the information on the cost structure (labour, materials, hours, parts, ...), and make an analysis of all the different elements of the production process.
To make an equally quality accordion, even when produced in China, prices will be in the same range.
1.500 to 2.500 euro for a good quality accordion is not much.

I also play classical guitar. Bought my spanish guitar second hand in 1986 (for an equivalent price in Euro): for 125 Euro. (about 168 US dollar)

If I look around on the internet comparing prices for flat top guitars or acoustic folk guitars, I see prices ranging up to 1000 us dollars, 2000 usd, 3000 usd an more...
Now that is what I call too much money for the time and effort making these guitars. Most of them are in part hand made, but in factories.

Compare the number of parts and materials in a guitar to those inside an accordion...
 
Soulsaver said:
I think the point is a good player can make just about any in-tune accordion sound good.. the same player will get the best out of a great box and sound ...brilliant.
A mediocre player wont be able to get the best out of a great box.. so will still sound mediocre... with perhaps better tone.
Further - the theory is that best German boxes were/are either partially or wholly made in Italy...
Click to expand...

Thats interesting Soulsaver- if I understand what you are saying, the benefit of spending out on a top of the range box is not necessarily an aid to better and faster progress.[/quote]

I dont know if its necessarily as important with accordions, but for a stringed instrument, the finest quality instrument can be hampered by a bad setup. I would imagine that the cheapest of boxes would actually hamper the player too and the difference between bog standard and medium quality, well set up instruments is a massive amount where as the difference between a good quality medium instrument and a top of the range, hand made and finished instrument is less so.
Yes the tone will be improved and there will be generally better (rarer and more expensive) quality materials, but this doesnt always equate to a better sound.

Look at the case with Stradivarius Violins...the so called pinnacle of violin building...in double blind tests, the subjects couldnt tell the instruments apart with good percentage preferring newer models that were compared alongside them. I have a Gibson guitar that is a dog and just does not improve no matter what I get done to it and I also have a basic Yamaha guitar that is just sublime. On the whole I think its sometimes perceived that an instrument is better when it is in fact not. Sometimes it comes down to pure dumb luck.

However, this still does not put me off wanting a Victoria XB502. It may cost the same price as a nice small hatchback...I dont know if its a great instrument or not. I want it and one day it will be mine! {}
 
Meerkatdawg said:
However, this still does not put me off wanting a Victoria XB502. It may cost the same price as a nice small hatchback...I dont know if its a great instrument or not. I want it and one day it will be mine! {}
Click to expand...

As someone who purchased a Victoria Poeta A420vp six months ago, I can say victoria makes a great instrument.

Honestly I have never owned a German accordion, all of mine are Italian made. This comes from a style choice on my part, not from quality of the sound.

I think a good german box sounds just as good as a good italian box, it is just that the italian box looks a lot less like a box. To me the italian made ones are a little softer and more rounded whereas the german boxes are more square and boxy.

One thing that I can say is that the tone of my new victoria dwarfs the tone of any other box that I have. However it is still not the most playable box that I own, the Da Vinci (re-branded guerrini) that I own is still the easiest to play. But just a little. In fact the Da Vinci looks a lot like your Sonola (but with a lot less ornamentation) Meerkatdawg. The only difference that slightly throws me off when changing between the two is that victoria seems to have rounded the edges of the sharp keys and possibly made them a touch smaller.

Does it make me a better player? No.
Does it make it more enjoyable to listen to? Yes. I have gotten more complements on the tone of the Victoria than any other that I have played out.
Was it worth the money? To me the answer is yes, to others it may not be.

Ben
 
I would add that imho current Weltmeisters are anything but mediocre, seem well designed and reliably built, with pretty good reeds. They represent astonishingly good value for money.

Currently we have a nearly factory new Romance CBA-C and an ex eBay Rubin, both these Welties are excellent and reliable. However, being long used to the delightful sound of Italian Castagnari Melodeons I swopped not long ago my new and very good German Welty Kristall for the particularly wonderful sound and action of an Allodi/Fantini at substantially more than twice the price (financed by the sale of other instruments), but it has not been without a minor fault (which Emilio has offered to fix promptly when we can get down to Lewisham).

I was a beginner on PA before, and a beginner I remain, but practising on the Allodi is such a delight to the ears (well, tonewise ….) and an enhanced inducement to keep going and try harder !

Rob

PS That sounds terribly convoluted and not a bit pompous, sorry, didn't mean it like that, just wanted to defend Welties really.
 
Even Ben 's right. The difference between the Italian and German manufacturers in my view lies in the credibility ' . A German product and ' credible and guaranteed . Often so ' and not ' for the Italian in general. But not when it comes to accordions . At least for now ....... A Stocco than 40 years ago and ' still unsurpassed .
 
Will it make you a better player? Yes, because a good Italian box is easier to play, and the beautiful sound will make you want to play more often and for longer. However, it also depends on your repertoire and your playing style. If you only play Morris tunes or hefty Germanic polkas, then you don't need an Italian box. I have no desire to 'upgrade' my Hohner Amati for Morris purposes (although it would be good to get it tuned....)

For my serious playing I would always buy a good second-hand Italian rather than a new Weltmeister- I borrowed a friend's Welty CBA last year for Sidmouth folk festival, and was extremely happy to hand it back... In the No.1 Ladies Accordion Orchestra, everybody upgraded to Italian boxes after a short while, because once you'd played next to a Fantini or Allodi or Borsini, and maybe had a lend of one, you'd know what you were missing.
 
I agree about repertoire and playing style but also finances come into it.
I have met some superb players who do not have an "Italianie" purely due to the price.
Several have old Hohner's that have been worked on and play well and sound wonderful.
They play some serious and complicated tunes- makes me wonder what they would do with a "must have" accordion. On the flip side I have seen and heard "ltalianies" played by Joe average which is why I asked the original question...basically, is is it need or want?
 
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