Manual is a little confusing as it doesn't really specify TS or TRS connectors it just reads 1/4 inch - it says stereo for the HP and then 1/4"....so I am assuming the audio outs are mono, but it can't hurt to check 
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FR4/FR8 audio out jacks - mono or stereo?
- Thread starter joden
- Start date
Chris Laarman
Active member
FR-4x manual, p9: "If you use both jacks, the FR-4x’s output is stereo."Manual is a little confusing as it doesn't really specify TS or TRS connectors it just reads 1/4 inch - it says stereo for the HP and then 1/4"....so I am assuming the audio outs are mono, but it can't hurt to check
FR-8x manual, p17: "For stereo operation, be sure to connect both jacks."
So, you can obtain stereo output through two mono connectors.
So, you can obtain stereo output through two mono connectors.
Thanks. Yeah that's what i thought.
Ventura
Been here for ages!
sheesh you guys
obviously they are NOT two mono 1/4" connectors
they are complex switching jacks that feed a MIXED left-right signal
with ALL the audio information available when only 1 (one) jack is
plugged into with an audio cable (either left or right)
physical switching inside the jacks changes the feed to left
and right when both jacks are plugged into at the same time
this is really basic stuff
literally every Korg and Roland synth or workstation or rhythm machine built in the last
20 years has the same left and right stereo / mono switching jack setup
on their back panel
obviously they are NOT two mono 1/4" connectors
they are complex switching jacks that feed a MIXED left-right signal
with ALL the audio information available when only 1 (one) jack is
plugged into with an audio cable (either left or right)
physical switching inside the jacks changes the feed to left
and right when both jacks are plugged into at the same time
this is really basic stuff
literally every Korg and Roland synth or workstation or rhythm machine built in the last
20 years has the same left and right stereo / mono switching jack setup
on their back panel
No, not necessarily ...You are talking about "summing", where the two signals are mixed to produce a "summed" mono output. The jacks themselves though are actually MONO (or "unbalanced") TS, not TRS.
You seem to be confusing a balanced connector (which uses a TRS/XLR jack/cable) with stereo. Two different things.
Rather than a long explanation here - it really is quite complex....this is a good read for understanding the differences. https://www.headphonesty.com/2019/05/balanced-vs-unbalanced-audio-connections/
You seem to be confusing a balanced connector (which uses a TRS/XLR jack/cable) with stereo. Two different things.
Rather than a long explanation here - it really is quite complex....this is a good read for understanding the differences. https://www.headphonesty.com/2019/05/balanced-vs-unbalanced-audio-connections/
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Ventura
Been here for ages!
not talking about summing at all,
you seem to only hear what you want to hear
i am talking about the physical jacks in the Roland equipment
the jacks are not physically mono, they are only mono
when switched into mono by the internal physical mechanism
of the jacks
you seem to only hear what you want to hear
i am talking about the physical jacks in the Roland equipment
the jacks are not physically mono, they are only mono
when switched into mono by the internal physical mechanism
of the jacks
What I'd like to know is where you got the schematic? Is it ACTUALLY from a Roland V-Accordion? I have not been able to find one and Roland Oz will not send me one, so I'd be interested to know where yours is from. and if genuine, mebbe post the entire schematic here so everyone (who is interested in that sort of stuff) can get a copy.
Or is it a generic "ask google" picture of standard switching jacks?
Just because the bulk of devices are loaded with them does not necessarily mean Roland did so with these. They have done some other weird stuff with the OS of these things
The manual states (ipso facto) that mono cables are to be used....if these were genuine switching jacks (in the FR) I daresday they would state TRS or TS cables/plugs could be used. But again I state, it IS Roland, so anything is possible
Or is it a generic "ask google" picture of standard switching jacks?
Just because the bulk of devices are loaded with them does not necessarily mean Roland did so with these. They have done some other weird stuff with the OS of these things
The manual states (ipso facto) that mono cables are to be used....if these were genuine switching jacks (in the FR) I daresday they would state TRS or TS cables/plugs could be used. But again I state, it IS Roland, so anything is possible
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These images are from FR-3x service manual. I'm pretty sure FR-4x and FR-8x are similar.
Below is for FR-5/FR-7:
Below is for FR-5/FR-7:
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when are they mono? (meaning: not a mix)
if I feed both sockets into 2 channels with a TS-cable, I get a separate L mono mix in one channel (bass biased), and a R mix in the other (treble biased).
how do I get L and R separation? (FR1x)
Is there a Service Manual available for the FR-8X?
John M.
John M.
Airy
Active member
Not sure if I understood your question but if you want bass notes on the left line output only and treble notes on the right or vice versa you have to configure the "Stereo Width" to value "Ful" (full), see manual page 49 (FR-1x). Default is a mixed sound with both tones on both channels but the bass somewhat louder on the left and the treble on the right channel. Orchestra and drum sounds (and maybe organ as well) behave different as far as I remember.
BTW: Channel separation / stereo only works if both line outputs are used at the same time.
Be aware, when using 2 cables it is NOT RH in one cable and LH in the other, it is a stereo mix that ROLAND thinks you should use. If you want complete right/left hand separation, you are going to be spending a LOT of time in the Java editor.
Ventura
Been here for ages!
for those who actually want to understand
using a complex jack with tip ring and sleeve contacts allows
the designer the ability to use the ring contact as a switch
the barrel of the normal MONO plug can either be used to short
out the ring contact to ground (as the plug in inserted)
or
more complex jacks actually have a complete switch that can be
normally closed, but that is pushed to an open state upon insertion
of the MONO plug
depending on the complexity of the circuit design and whether
the device can sense the change and activate a software switch
to alter the audio signal path, or whether it merely re-routes the
audio signal based on switch position, you have the result, as in the Rolands,
of plugging one normal mono cable into either jack and having the full audio mix signal,
or plugging two normal mono cables in and having separate left and right audio signals
with the switching being essentially automatic, instantaneous, and transparent to the user
again, this is commonplace, and has been standard industry practice for decades,
though some of you may not have noted it before as it happens quietly behind the scenes
Jerry's point also needs to be considered when you don't find the result to be
true stereo, as Roland in their infinite wisdom decided it was more natural to always
have a certain minimum "bleed" for the accordion stereo image separation
Roland had a fetish for what they advertised as "supernatural" and it kind of
screwed a lot of things up for pro musicians on stage.. like their Organ line
and modules built in volume pedal jacks cannot have a true zero state for the Volume,
as they felt all real Organs naturally had a small amount of "bleed" in their audio output
so we have to live with it and compensate other ways
(like putting a volume pedal on the actual audio output)
using a complex jack with tip ring and sleeve contacts allows
the designer the ability to use the ring contact as a switch
the barrel of the normal MONO plug can either be used to short
out the ring contact to ground (as the plug in inserted)
or
more complex jacks actually have a complete switch that can be
normally closed, but that is pushed to an open state upon insertion
of the MONO plug
depending on the complexity of the circuit design and whether
the device can sense the change and activate a software switch
to alter the audio signal path, or whether it merely re-routes the
audio signal based on switch position, you have the result, as in the Rolands,
of plugging one normal mono cable into either jack and having the full audio mix signal,
or plugging two normal mono cables in and having separate left and right audio signals
with the switching being essentially automatic, instantaneous, and transparent to the user
again, this is commonplace, and has been standard industry practice for decades,
though some of you may not have noted it before as it happens quietly behind the scenes
Jerry's point also needs to be considered when you don't find the result to be
true stereo, as Roland in their infinite wisdom decided it was more natural to always
have a certain minimum "bleed" for the accordion stereo image separation
Roland had a fetish for what they advertised as "supernatural" and it kind of
screwed a lot of things up for pro musicians on stage.. like their Organ line
and modules built in volume pedal jacks cannot have a true zero state for the Volume,
as they felt all real Organs naturally had a small amount of "bleed" in their audio output
so we have to live with it and compensate other ways
(like putting a volume pedal on the actual audio output)
Airy
Active member
This made me curious because my first impression was different (see above). But JerryPH is right for the most part!
A short recording with two cables (L/R) revealed the following. I testet ONLY with the default soundset on FR-1x plus I altered the following parameters:
- Stereo Width (StE) = Full (FUL)
- Reverb Level (R L) = 0
- Chorus Level (C L) = 0
=== Stereo Separation Table ===
(the percentage values are rough estimates of the sound levels)
Right Hand:
- Accordion Treble (including fake Valve Noise) = 0% L + 100% R
- Orchestra = 50% L + 100% R
- Organ = 100% L + 100% R
Left Hand:
- Accordeon Bass (incl. fake Button Noise) = 100% L + 20% R
- Upright Bass = 100% L + 0% R
- Accordion Chords = 100% L + 0% R
- Orch Chords = 100% L + 50% R
- Organ = 100% L + 100% R
- Drums = 100% L + 100% R
Summary:
Using the default accordion sound (treble + chords) and replacing the accordion bass with the upright bass you indeed get complete stereo separation (left hand = left channel, right hand = right channel).
If you use the accordeon bass instead, you get a little bleed into the right channel and even may be able to reduce this with some post EQ highpass filtering.
All other combinations have severe bleed or are spread all over both channels.
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you understood my question perfectly
I got a decisive answer before here that this wasn't possible, and is always a mix. The separation would make my recording process much nicer.
but your testing reveals what I found myself earlier: that Roland lets the sides 'bleed'. Unfortunately
Airy
Active member
Dear jazz,
as was showed in my test I find the channel separation at least with accordion-only sounds quite acceptable.
But even better — if you‘re talking about recording and not a live stage perfomance: Why not record the MIDI out of your performance and play that back to the accordion later — instrument by instrument (this is; MIDI-channel by MIDI-channel) while audio-recording these playbacks?
This way you would get perfectly separated audio tracks for each instrument. Even the left hands playing would be further seperated into bass and chords (and drums if applicable). And each individual instrument track will even be in stereo, so you will be able to take advantage of Rolands spatial placement for each instrument as well as from the reverb and chorus effects.
You would need a DAW software which is capable of recording audio while playing back MIDI. (DAW = digital audio workstation).
Let me know if you need assistance to set this up or pick a (free) software.
this seems not possible with the Fr1x, MIDI out only. I believe the higher models have MIDI in?
Airy
Active member
The FR1x does have MIDI in but via USB only!
You need to change the system parameter „External Sequencer“ (ESq) to „yes“ to use this. The internal keyboards of the FR1x will then be switched off, so change the value back afterwards.
And because you will be using a computer in a somewhat studio setting anyway — to record and send the MIDI data — USB connection should not be an issue.
ps.: Note that MIDI IN only reacts on a subset of the whole MIDI possibilties. See MIDI implementation chart in the manual page 72ff. Therefore I‘m not 100% sure if the volume / expression / dynamic of the performance will be preserved.
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Ventura
Been here for ages!
nice analysis, and great catch that upright bass did allow separation
still, for me the takeaway is how incredibly sad it was that Roland
designers could not (would not) consider the needs of Studio use
as well as simple Live performance use, and have ways to switch
and adjust settings to accommodate all possible uses
and even live, there are certainly times when we need total true
separation (like when playing Arena Rock concerts) so that the
engineer controlling the main board can totally place everything
in the best way possible
i blame this dually on the arrogance of their marketing dept. as well as the
"first duty is to perpetuate our jobs and enshrine our earnings through patents
we get paid for no matter what" italian tech team
Yeah that's right. Everytime I tell the promoters I can't play an arena rock tour because of my accordion limitations they get really mad because they're losing so many millions of dollars. Doesn't seem to bother Dorgival Dantas though.
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