FR-4x bass sounds

[dmiftakhutdinov]

I have a simple acoustic button accordion (Tula-210 bajan namely) and when I play a scale (say C major) in left hand, I hear infinitely ascending tones. I play repeatedly the same buttons but the sound is rich enough to make an illusion of infinitely ascending motion. On the other hand, when I play a scale with my FR-4xb, I always hear some sharp drop (its position depends on selected set: for example, playing the default set 1 I hear this drop between D and E) so instead of infinitely ascending motion I hear something like up-DOWN-up-up-up-up-up-up-DOWN-up-up... This drop is not so profound but still hearable on 'Norway' sets (between B and C as far as I remember). Is there any set or sound expansion or whatever free of this issue?

 

[davidplaysaccordion]

Sounds like the Tula is freebass while the 4x is emulating a traditional one octave stadella bass system, unless you have the 4x in freebass mode in which case I have no idea

 

[dmiftakhutdinov]

Sounds like the Tula is freebass while the 4x is emulating a traditional one octave stadella bass system, unless you have the 4x in freebass mode in which case I have no idea

Nope, that one is a very standard stradella system and I just play scale in two first rows. Because the sound is rich enough, while I play the same 12 buttons there is an illusion of infinite unidirectional move. Had I recorded the spectrum, I would definitely see the same drop in both instruments but because Tula has rich sound it is percepted like this seventh down is second up.

 

[Tom]

You can set the basses on the 4x to start from any note, followed (ascending) by the rest of the chromatic scale (octave). You can then set it for the key you are playing. I don't have the manual in front of me but you can find it.

 

[dmiftakhutdinov]

You can set the basses on the 4x to start from any note, followed (ascending) by the rest of the chromatic scale (octave). You can then set it for the key you are playing. I don't have the manual in front of me but you can find it.

That's not enough. For example, you may want to start in 3/4 from C major, then go to F major through bass line (c-C7-C7-c-d-e-f-F-F): thus c-d-e-f should sound ascending. But then you, for example, may want to move further (f-F7-F7-f-g-a-bb-Bb-Bb), then further (bb-Bb7-Bb7-c-d-eb-Eb-Eb). So wee need all of these (c-d-e-f, f-g-a-bb, and bb-c-d-eb) to sound ascending. It is possible only if they are rich enough.

I have recorded scales with both instruments. Actually you can hear drop in b-c transition with Tula but emotionally it is still percepted as an ascending motion. Below there are spectrograms of Tula (left) and 'Hello 4x' set of Roland (right): we see drops in b-c transition in Tula and e-f transition in Roland, but Tula spectrum is richer. A have attached sound recording with four fragments: Tula scale, Roland scale, Tula g-G7-G7-g-a-b-c-C-C transition, and Roland b-B7-B7-b-c#-d#-e-E-E transition. While the first transition is heard as ascending even while b-c in reality is a seventh down, the second one is not heard as ascending. At least with my ears

PS: Small letters are bass notes, capital letters are major chords, and capital letters with 7 are dominant seventh chords.

 

[debra]

I have explained this a few times already. To have infinitely "ascending" scales (but only playing one octave repeatedly) you need to have "Shepard tone". (Look it up on Wikipedia for a really good explanation.) On an accordion this is approximated by having the octave jump at different notes for different reed banks. Some accordions do a better job at hiding the octave jump than others.
The old Hohner accordions are the worst for this because they have the octave jump on the same note in every reed bank.
On a *good* digital accordion a perfect Shepard tone can be achieved easily. Sadly the Roland does not try to achieve this.

 

[dmiftakhutdinov]

I have explained this a few times already. To have infinitely "ascending" scales (but only playing one octave repeatedly) you need to have "Shepard tone". (Look it up on Wikipedia for a really good explanation.) On an accordion this is approximated by having the octave jump at different notes for different reed banks. Some accordions do a better job at hiding the octave jump than others.
The old Hohner accordions are the worst for this because they have the octave jump on the same note in every reed bank.
On a *good* digital accordion a perfect Shepard tone can be achieved easily. Sadly the Roland does not try to achieve this.

Yep, that what's I am talking about Wikipedia has really good explanation, you are right. Do you have any ideas how Roland sound sets are built? What are the file formats? It looks it should be easy to generate such sounds if one knows the file format.

 

[Ventura]

sound sets have nothing to do with the ascending illusion of infinite octaves

Roland sound sets that can be imported into one of 4 writeable and
addressable dedicated memory locations on a few models is a .BIN file
in a proprietary format that is not available outside of Roland as far
as anyone knows

i do not think it would be easy even if we knew the secret.. it takes a very
expensive Studio environment and an immense amount of time and
patience and extreme control of the environment as well as fabulously
expensive computing hardware and software to render the many levels
of tone and attack and reaction of each reed on many levels

it also takes a certain type of person/engineer/artist to craft core
soundsets.. we are not talking about a Casio SK1 skillset..

 

[debra]

Yep, that what's I am talking about Wikipedia has really good explanation, you are right. Do you have any ideas how Roland sound sets are built? What are the file formats? It looks it should be easy to generate such sounds if one knows the file format.

I have no idea about how the Roland really works and can be reprogrammed. I would really like to own a digital accordion, but it needs to be one that sounds like a really good accordion. So far I have not found one that's worth buying. The accordion sound, especially the sounds without tremolo, are all pretty poor (and I'm searching for a "polite" term here).