Excelsior Valve Pallets

[ATB88]

I have two Excelsiors (AC line) that have treble valve pallets that are metallic material and slip on/friction fit as opposed to the more traditional wooden waxed on pallets that all of my other instruments, and many other accordions have. I’m seriously contemplating a conversion back the wooden/waxed in style pallets with my technician as it’s been explained to me that in his opinion, they may be superior and possibly offer slight improvement in compression as the metallic slip on style are prone to easily being bumped out of place.


Wondering if anyone, especially the techs on here have experience with these two types of pallets especially in terms of if there are anymore thoughts on the pros and cons of each. I’ve seen several other Excelsiors of various vintages with the slip on friction fit metallic style and am curious for more info and food for thought on why this style of pallet was used and if they were “factory/stock” as I have heard that in decades past, Excelsior and others had a period in which they obtained and used some inferior pad glue that resulted in sticky keys - and perhaps the instruments including my own that I’ve seen were converted for that reason?. Picture attached for specific reference to the style I’m referring to.

 

[Ventura]

I have two Excelsiors (AC line) that have treble valve pallets that are metallic material and slip on/friction fit as opposed to the more traditional wooden waxed on pallets .............................. I’m seriously contemplating a conversion XbXaXcXk (to) the wooden/waxed in style pallets

then it will not be an AC anymore

the precision, well designed, well built Pro level action is the result of all
components working as designed, in harmony

you might as well just sell them to someone who appreciates the AC as is
and buy something else that suits your preference for the old, rigid, wood
and wax system that loses it's perfect seal as soon as the felt backing begins to
compress and lowers, thereby losing the original angle that was waxed in place

not to mention it is a real art to matching the cassotto valves fit to equal the
pressure and lift of the easy to reach non-casstto valves.. if you are not really good at this,
you could be making adjustments for years to come till you get it half right

 

[Ventura]

Excelsior and others had a period in which they obtained and used some inferior pad glue that resulted in sticky keys - and perhaps the instruments including my own that I’ve seen were converted for that reason?.

no repair tech EVER replaced the pallets when replacing the leather facings
(that the bad glue migrated through) which was all that was needed..
(and possibly the felts)

it rakes more time to thorughly clean the face plate than it does to reface
the leathers

the glue was not inferior, it was a new and improved product that
was accepted by the industry rather widely, but unfortunately
prove to be unstable over time, but no-one knew that until
years had passed

ignoring the test of time has risks

 

[boxplayer4000]

ATB88 raises a good point about pallet re-furbishment on accordions of a certain age.
Excelsior, like other manufacturers, used a rubber connection between the pallet and the key rod for the simple reason that the 'rubber' would allow a small amount of movement of the pallet which would find its own best/flat/air-tight position. It's doubtful if those 'rubber' connections were rubber at all but were more likely to be a synthetic equivalent; and as such would have a more limited life of natural flexibility.
I'm not entirely sure but I think Hohner may still sell their pallet rubber connections but given Excelsior's history it seems less likely that there would be spares.
ATB88 doesn't show us pictures of the keyboard or make any other assessments of how the pallet felt/leather may have compressed over the years. My own feeling, without seeing all the keyboard and pallets, is that the pallets will be capable of being removed making it easier to renew the felt and leather.
An important point to establish before any dismantling is done is what thickness of felt/leather is required. When the accordion was new it is most likely that the maker aligned the treble key tops, at the bottom and top of the keyboard, to be level with keyboard edge. The felt/leather which achieves this is the one you need.
Fears about the older rubber connections losing their grip and allowing the pallets to 'wander' could probably be kept in check with a small amount of glue.

 

[debra]

I have two Excelsiors (AC line) that have treble valve pallets that are metallic material and slip on/friction fit as opposed to the more traditional wooden waxed on pallets that all of my other instruments, and many other accordions have. I’m seriously contemplating a conversion back the wooden/waxed in style pallets with my technician as it’s been explained to me that in his opinion, they may be superior and possibly offer slight improvement in compression as the metallic slip on style are prone to easily being bumped out of place.


Wondering if anyone, especially the techs on here have experience with these two types of pallets especially in terms of if there are anymore thoughts on the pros and cons of each. I’ve seen several other Excelsiors of various vintages with the slip on friction fit metallic style and am curious for more info and food for thought on why this style of pallet was used and if they were “factory/stock” as I have heard that in decades past, Excelsior and others had a period in which they obtained and used some inferior pad glue that resulted in sticky keys - and perhaps the instruments including my own that I’ve seen were converted for that reason?. Picture attached for specific reference to the style I’m referring to.

I strongly advice not to replace these metal pallets by wooden ones. The rods/levers are rather thick and round and the wooden pallets are made to fit slimmer levers with a rectangular profile, so they will not fit as well. There is nothing wrong with metal pallets. They are used a lot in the industry even today. For instance all Russian bayans use metal pallets, and the Italians have copied that so for instance the Pigini Sirius bayan (even the piano accordion version) has metal pallets. Hohner also used them quite a bit. The Atlantic series for instance all came with metal pallets.
The felt+leather looks to be rather thick. I guess that the thickest material (white felt+brown leather), at 4.5mm will do fine. White felt is the preferred color because less paint is used to color the felt and thus the white felt is the softest.
When you bring in an accordion with wooden pallets a repairer will often replace them because they can buy a complete set of pallets with felt+leather already glued on, so the replacement process is much quicker (costing less in labor, but more in the material).
Regarding the glue problem Ventura mentioned, there are two known instances of it: some decades ago a "new and improved" glue was used that took only about 3 months to penetrate the leather and make the leather facing stick to the soundboard. At that time the largest number of accordions produced in Castelfidardo were the Hohner Morino N series, and about 10.000 of them were made with the bad glue before the problem was discovered and the glue abandoned. This led to the term "Klebemorino" and whenever you buy a Morino N you have to make sure it isn't one of those 10.000. Other factories also used the faulty glue. I saw a "Klebebugari" for instance with the exact same problem. The whole industry failed to issue a recall for the affected accordions, which was really bad!
The second instance happened about 10 years ago. Again a new glue was used, fortunately as far as I know only on some accordions, but this time it too 7 to 8 years for the leather to start sticking to the soundboard. Again the problem is known by the accordion factories. My favorite dealer did get Bugari to supply new pallets+felt+leather for some affected accordions (but did not pay for the work to put them in). I always say "if it ain's broke, don't fix it" but often industry does not seem to get that message.

 

[John M]

. . . "if it ain's broke, don't fix it" but often industry does not seem to get that message.

Hammond found that out many years after they switched to foam in the manuals to keep dust out. The foam would disintegrate (depending on the environment) shorting out the wiring to the key contacts in the manuals, destroying them beyond repair. Previously, they used cotton, as a dust seal, that was riveted to the manuals. A Hammond that was manufactured in 1935, will still have the cotton and the manuals in good condition today.

 

[Ventura]

even Steinway made a similar mis-step.. they switched to that newangled
neat Teflon material that promised to lower friction and last forever

except it didn't

they had to replace a lot of whippens

 

[debra]

even Steinway made a similar mis-step.. they switched to that newangled
neat Teflon material that promised to lower friction and last forever

except it didn't

they had to replace a lot of whippens

Everyone makes mistakes, but this sounds that they took responsibility!
Accordion manufacturers have not acted upon the discovery of faulty glue causing the leather to stick to the soundboard. Customers were left with finding someone to fix their accordion at the customer's expense. I still don't know how the manufacturers managed to dodge their responsibility and honor warranty as they should have done.