Excelsior Model 272E, 34/72 3v

[TW]

I acquired an Excelsior Model 272E recently in order to try PAs again.
It is a decent instrument....probably too Pigini for me on reflection...and one that seems unused.

But, having soon discovered that the PA keyboard reintroduced the mechanical stress that I had avoided by a change to buttons, I placed the accordion for sale on Ebay.

I have had to close the listing early because, in answering a question posed about the instrument with a recording on Soundcloud, it was pointed out that in the MM register another reed (L) can be heard ghosting in some notes (upper octave).

I will not re-list until I have corrected this anomaly but Im not sure where to start looking.
Is it likely to be incorrect register slide adjustment?

I attach some images and a sound bite of the problem and would be very grateful for opinion.

These are the register tabs :

This is the mechanism.

 

[JIM D.]

You have an Excelsior that is made by a subsidiary of Pigini. The reeds you have in this one are most likely a quality machine made product. These Pigini Excelsiors are although well made, but of a semi-pro quality.
From your recording I hear M set reed tongues that have lost temper and sound out of tune with varying air pressure. In most all cases I would not clean and tune them but replace the reed itself. Take it to an accordion tech.

Excelsior's up to the mid 70's were of the finest and top of the line well made box's - but after the 70's the name and badge was sold and various makers produced them and of different qualities. And the Chinese have been making rip-off's for years now. Before buying a box with a well known badge on it, always take it to an accordion tech. for an appraisal of value. :tup:

 

[TW]

Thank you for the rapid diagnosis Jim D.
I will follow your advice (once I can find a tuner somewhere local to me).
I take heart from your view that this Excelsior is likely to be a Pigini one and probably worth repair rather than a bin.

 

[JIM D.]

A fine Pigini Product !! :tup:
Is it this one ??
http://www.excelsior-accordions.it/prodotti/standard.php?see=euro72_3S&language=en

 

[TW]

Yes JIM D, mine is an earlier model, with 7 registers, but otherwise the same.
I acquired it from Gordon Shand.
An excellent indication of the sounds made with this accordion can be found in this Youtube clip where the master coupler is used.
Excelsior 272E

I have been making further examination today.
I have examined all the treble notes in each register selection and all behave normally (excepting in the MM register).

In all registers (except the MM) the notes register as +8 cents on a tuning meter.
In the tremolo set (MM) the tuning is shown as (about) +14 cents.
In that register, only the natural notes between Upper C and Upper A show the ghosting, the sharps being unaffected.

When an M register is selected both M register buttons operate but only one locks.
The L selector acts similarly - but this is logical as there is only one L reedbank.

If there are two sets of M reeds, why does the register selector not open each M reed bank separately seeing that there are two selectors available?

I have not yet opened the accordion but will show the banks when I do.
Any advice/comments would be appreciated.

 

[TW]

This accordion is described by most mainstream vendors as A lovely quality Excelsior.
When I opened the accordion I was surprised to find plastic reed units. Ive never seen them in an accordion before and didnt expect to find them in this, apparently, Italian Accordion - perhaps Ill look before I leap next time.
The treble reed blocks are seen here:
Perhaps I need to re-valve some and reassess the ghosting?

 

[debra]

There are several possible causes for what you are hearing. Nothing seems wrong with the tuning itself in general. The notes being +8 cents just means the instrument was tuned to A=442Hz and your tuner was set to A=440Hz. (At this frequency every Hertz is 4 cents.)
The first thing I suggest to do is to take out the reed blocks to see whether the registers open and close all the way. If the L reed isn't completely blocked at that one (C) note that may cause the L to sound when it is not selected. Another possibility is an air leak either where the reed block meets the accordion body, or between an L and M reed (inside a block).
So there are possibilities for this to not be an issue with any reed itself.
(It does look like the reed blocks are plastic. Shame on Excelsior/Pigini for doing this.)

 

[JIM D.]

The last Pic's posted leave me nothing but sad news for you. Pigini Excelsiors are all made with wooden reed blocks.
You have a knockoff. These show up on Ebay at times.
I've encountered 2 of these in the past and both were purchased by American vacationers in Europe. Also both were marked "Made In Italy". To his date I'm not sure there origin, but possibly a better class China product that we see today.

 

[debra]

The last Pics posted leave me nothing but sad news for you. Pigini Excelsiors are all made with wooden reed blocks.
You have a knockoff. These show up on Ebay at times.
Ive encountered 2 of these in the past and both were purchased by American vacationers in Europe. Also both were marked Made In Italy. To his date Im not sure there origin, but possibly a better class China product that we see today.

That is also what I thought, although I dont know about Excelsior after 2000. Sadly indeed because of the plastic reed blocks this instrument is worth a lot less than if it had wooden reed blocks. Not that plastic reed blocks are bad by definition, but it is indicative of the whole instrument to be of much lower quality than one would expect of Excelsior.
The mechanical stress TW noticed is another indicator that this is not really an Excelsior of Italian quality. There is absolutely no more mechanical stress to be expected from a PA than from a CBA of similar quality. But the mechanics of Chinese PAs simply isnt that good. Chances are also that the black keys require more force than the white keys, something that also should not be the case on a good accordion.
The good news is that the problem (with the C note) should be fixable after which the instrument should at least be fully playable.

 

[TW]

Thank you Gentlemen for the clear explanation of this problem, on the basis of the evidence I have provided.

I must say that I was taken aback by discovering the plastic reed banks having had several Excelsiors over the years - all 'proper' ones!

I'm sure the seller did not perpetrate a deliberate fraud, his background and family are too well known for that even to be considered.
I have approached him to see whether he will contemplate a return of goods and will, meanwhile, do nothing further to the instrument.

I will post again to report any progress....although, after checking, it seems I may be 2 days over the 30 day return date..

 

[TW]

Origin of the Accordion
It appears that this accordion is older than I thought and so does not form part of the Excelsior range in the Pigini era.
It is just what was advertised.

The vendor of my accordion, absolutely trustworthy, states that:
"this accordion is from the Excelsior product range, fully endorsed by Excelsior at the time of manufacture.
The year of manufacture, around the 1990s, was prior to Pigini buying out Excelsior.
In the model 272e parts of the production were outsourced but the process was finished in Italy subject to the Excelsior quality checks at this time.
Out sourcing of various parts of accordion production is not uncommon and is still a practice used today by some manufacturers.
The comment that this accordion is a "knock off" is misinformed."
The accordion is an Excelsior of entry quality with outsourced components and it is what it is, a decent starter/folk box.

Ghost Note
The problem for investigation next in the ghost note saga are the sliders (for correct closure in the L reed section) as suggested by De Bra.

Button or PA
In respect of the comments about the Button or PA with respect to keyboard style I was referring to an idiosyncratic finding.
It is now easier for me to operate a button keyboard rather than a PA keyboard and has been for a long time.
Unfortunately I would much prefer to be playing a PA but for the discomfort...nothing to do with the manufacture!

The suggestions so far have been very helpful and I am grateful...when I get stuck with the sliders I'll ask again if permitted....

 

[TW]

In my search for the reason for a ghost L reed sound with MM selected I want to remove the reed blocks to look at the sliders as suggested.
There are catches at both ends that look as if they should slide..but I cant move them.

If the tabs are just wedges to stabilise the reedblock I suppose that once the nut is slackened and the tab removed, a hole large enough to allow passage of the nut might be revealed so allowing removal of the reed bank.
If so, Ive not seen this method before.

 

[debra]

In my search for the reason for a ghost L reed sound with MM selected I want to remove the reed blocks to look at the sliders as suggested.
There are catches at both ends that look as if they should slide..but I cant move them.
../
If the tabs are just wedges to stabilise the reedblock I suppose that once the nut is slackened and the tab removed, a hole large enough to allow passage of the nut might be revealed so allowing removal of the reed bank.
If so, Ive not seen this method before.

It just so happens that I did some tuning yesterday on a Rossini (of Chech origin) and it has the exact same wedges. You have to loosen the (M3) nuts you see a little bit and then the wedge comes loose and can slide out.(Use the same pliers to grip the wedge.) You need to remove the wedges on both sides of a reed block and then the block can be lifted out (after also removing the bridge strap that joins the reed blocks).
That Rossini by the way (4 reed, 41 key) has plastic reed blocks on the bass side but wooden blocks on the keyboard side. The construction looks so much the same that Im pretty sure your Excelsior is at least partly made in the same (Czech) factory as the Rossini I worked on. The color of the plastic block is the same, the wedges, the bridge between reed blocks, the very light pale color of the wax, the bellow strap attachment, the gray padding under the reed blocks, all the same. So probably the same business rules with Excelsior as with Rossini: high end instruments made in Italy, low end instruments outsourced, in this case to a Czech factory.

 

[nagant27]

I am reading this thread, and am amazed. I knew Excelsior is not what it once was and that there are truly no such thing as an actual "new" excelsior any more... but plastic reed blocks!!!??? Doesn't the wood help resonate the sound, and give it its tonal characteristics? I don't understand how plastic would be able to do this. I can understand plastic for some mechanical parts, but when it comes to the reed blocks, I don't think so. What do these sound like?

 

[TW]

Thanks for the post Paul, the very light colour of the wax had escaped me, and the grey seal too, until you mentioned it.
I like your inferences which provide the best explanation for my Excelsior, so thank you very much for a logical train of thought.

By the time I saw your post I had braved the consequences and removed the reed blocks - just as you describe.
I had hoped to find a bit of thread (or something) that would allow the leakage causing the ghosting and, while the reedblock bed wasnt perfect, I could see nothing amiss.

On reassembly the leakage is still there - may be less (or is that wishful thinking?) I didnt fasten the blocks quite so vigorously in case that was causing warping so Ill watch the accordion for a day or two..may be it will recover miraculously..it is Christmas....

nagent27..answer = not half bad actually!
It is fair to point out that this Excelsior is not from the current range.

 

[debra]

Regarding the plastic reed blocks: the influence on the sound "timbre" is actually relatively limited. The sound an accordion produces is mostly that the airflow through the opening in a reed plate is interrupted by the vibrating reed. Most of the sound is just that vibrating airflow. There is influence of the "box" and of the reed blocks but that is all minor. Most influential to the sound is how the reed vibrates (depends on size, shape and material of the reed) and how the shape of the box influences the path the sound follows. The most serious effect comes from elements in the construction like a cassotto (sound chamber). The reed block does not have a lot of influence: some people really like the sound of instruments where instead of wax to stick the reed plates to the reed block the reed plates are separated from the reed block by a strip of leather and held in place with nails. On these accordions the leather buffer actually limits the transfer of vibration from reed plate to reed block. On my Pigini basson the larger reeds are on a multi-reed read plate, with leather buffer, and the smaller ones are traditional separate reed plates glued to the reed block with wax. You cannot hear the transition from one to the other despite the difference in sound transfer to the reed block. Clearly the reed block has less influence on the sound than we often like to think when speaking badly of plastic reed blocks. Plastic is less susceptible to warping caused by moisture and temperature changes than wood. But the very lightweight construction of the plastic reed blocks make it possible that there could be a tiny air leak from an M reed to the L reed at the other side of the block. That just might be the case here. I have even known this to happen with high notes (H reed) between adjacent notes, on a higher end accordion.

 

[nagant27]

Thank you Paul- that is some good information. Are these accordions noticeable lighter because of the reed blocks being plastic?

 

[debra]

Thank you Paul- that is some good information. Are these accordions noticeable lighter because of the reed blocks being plastic?

Every little bit helps to reduce the weight of instruments. The difference in weight of the reed blocks may contribute maybe 100 grams in the difference, if not less. Thinner wooden cases help too (but are making an instrument more fragile). Bass mechanisms have gone through redesigns to make them lighter (but not necessarily better). Many factors contribute to new instruments being maybe 1kg lighter than an equivalent instrument of 20 to 30 years ago. Plastic reed blocks make one big difference: price. They are cast in one go whereas making a wooden reed block is a laborious task (a reed block is not cut out of a single piece of wood). The weight difference is negligible.

 

[TW]

In the light shed by Paul De Bra on the question of ghost notes I followed his prescription.

• 1. removed the reed blocks after having ascertained which reeds were making the additional background sound.
  2. checked the slider mechanism which works just as expected.
  3. examined the reeds themselves for 'an air leak... between an L and M reed (inside a block)' but the reedblock, plastic, virtually indestructible showed no problems.
  4. waxing everywhere was excellent - but perhaps the clean-up left something to be desired.
  5. looked for 'leakage where the reed block meets the accordion body'. The only fault I could find was a fine smear of wax on the surface of one of the affected reed blocks where it is cushioned on gasket around the slider mechanism.

After cleaning the smear off and refitting the blocks the problem was solved - at least for the time being.
I find it hard to believe that a smear of wax on a surface mating with a resilient gasket could be sufficient to have this effect, but time will tell whether it was the whole story.

I'd like to thank Paul for his distant guidance and encouragement and to remark that this accordion is actually very nice, well made, robust and, but for it's straight tuning, ideal for me.

 

[debra]

In the light shed by Paul De Bra on the question of ghost notes I followed his prescription.
...The only fault I could find was a fine smear of wax on the surface of one of the affected reed blocks where it is cushioned on gasket around the slider mechanism.

After cleaning the smear off and refitting the blocks the problem was solved - at least for the time being.

Yep, that will have been the culprit. Its not the smear of wax that leaks air but air leaks at the edges of it: the grey pad (gasket) cannot follow the shape/edge of that smear perfectly so a bit of air can leak through, and enough air pressure will ensure that it does. These things do happen. It really sounds like you solved the problem.