Ellegaard Special Line by Pigini

[Alan Sharkis]

I’m curious about this line of accordions because I’m using the Ellegaard method to teach myself C-System free bass on a Roland FR-4x PA and hoping I live long enough to purchase a C-Griff CBA.

I’ve seen some used models in the Ellegaard Special line for sale in various sites around the Web. They range from full-sized CBAs with stepped treble to small ones with flat treble keyboards. Some have converter bass, some only C-System bass. Yet Pigini’s website doesn’t have any mention of them.

I’m curious about when they were made and if and when Pigini stopped making them. I assume that if they were made by Pigini they would have been decent accordions.

If you have any information about them, please post it here.

Thanks.

 

[JerryPH]

I kind of see Elegaard instruments like good cars but have designer names... theyare normally higher in cost but don't necessarily offer anything more than the same models but without the added brightwork.

There are many good C-griff accordions out there.

 

[saundersbp]

I think these ellegaard specials are older Pigini models from memory 40ish years old. I have a medium size converter one which is still going strong with great internal construction. To my ears they sound rather nicer than the modern Pigini equivalent models.

We also have several freebass only ones at work which were all bought from Germany, built like battleships and all still going strong without problems.

I'm not a fan of the ellegaard tutor book..
. didn't he play a three row freebass system rather than the modern four?

 

[petch]

A couple of things to be aware of with (some of?) the bigger ones that I found when I was shopping around for a converter

The biggest models are essentially just Pigini B-105s (predecessor to the Bayan 58/B Deluxe) and don't have the same keyboard placement as modern Italian 'bayans' (so the body similar to that of a piano accordion). I tried one in person and it felt even heavier and more unwieldy than the modern designs - but did sound quite nice

I've seen photos of one of these that didn't have any registers for the bass, so presumably you're stuck in 16+8 for free bass at all times!



A lot of them also have the MIII bass where there are 9 rows on the bass instead of a converter, I would avoid these as there's no 4th row on the free bass (and you have to reach further!)



There was also another design I remember seeing but can't find any photos of that didn't have the 9 rows, however the lowest free bass notes were completely offset from the rest of the stradella buttons, which changes how you might 'borrow' the stradella bass notes whilst in free bass

edit: found an image but it's a different make entirely, but you get the idea



And some like this one are pretty much the design same as their modern counterparts http://scotlandaccordions.co.uk/Ellegaard Pigini Free bass or Convertor accordion 96 bass

 

[saundersbp]

And some like this one are pretty much the design same as their modern counterparts http://scotlandaccordions.co.uk/Ellegaard Pigini Free bass or Convertor accordion 96 bass

That's exactly the model I have. They'll never sell that accordion at that price though, crazy!!!

 

[petch]

That's exactly the model I have. They'll never sell that accordion at that price though, crazy!!!

It's been there for a while now, I remember seeing it when I was shopping around - and the price hasn't budged!

 

[Alan Sharkis]

Thanks, guys. My curiosity has been satisfied by your posts and also by ildr oots on this forum.

 

[Walker]

I’m curious about this line of accordions because I’m using the Ellegaard method to teach myself C-System free bass on a Roland FR-4x PA and hoping I live long enough to purchase a C-Griff CBA.​

While there may be many things to like about the Pigini Ellegaard Special accordions, that is not the reason I write here...

It seems to me, Alan, that you are a man who has a great desire to explore new musical options. Therefore, in a spirit of friendliness, I will make one small suggestion for you to consider:
​

I'm not a fan of the ellegaard tutor book..​

Saundersbp has made an interesting comment (above) that should be considered.

Now, I may be just a piano accordionist who plays the other system (Quint), What would I know, right? Well, feel free to disregard my comments... but you should know that the techniques in this Ellegaard book are really for accordion with system of minor 3rds "chromatic" over 3 rows in the left hand. It is really not ideal for a 4 row (left hand, free bass) instrument. Now, the Roland FR4X, I believe, uses a 4 row system, as almost all modern chromatic free bass accordions are these day. Unless you are going to play a vintage Hohner Morino, Gola or a Giulietti with 3 rows of chromatic notes, I would be mindful how much energy you expend on this book. There will be other books that are designed specifically for the instrument you want to study.

Caveat: I am no expert on the chromatic button accordion. I can bash a tune out of one. I have also spent time exploring the chromatic free bass side converter over 4 rows - and the first book I looked at was the Ellegaard book you refer to. Sadly, I must say, within a day I knew it was not an ideal study material for the 4 row instrument. The scale fingerings of the modern chromatic accordion (C system) have developed since Ellegarde's book, and thumb use on the left hand is promoted.

Additional note: If you are happy to play free bass on 3 rows (left hand) I believe one of the Ballone Burini companies were (maybe a few years ago or more) producing a chromatic converter over 3 rows. I can't remember which one, it gets a bit confusing when there are two companies with similar names. However, if the 3 row option still exists, it might be another alternative to the big, classic Hohner's I mentioned earlier.

P.S. My intention is not to discourage you from learning any accordion you want. As you are keen on this type of accordion, it is only fair to mention it, that's all.

All the best.​

 

[Alan Sharkis]

Hello Walker,

The Ellegaard book is now a pdf file and available at various sites on the Web, so I thought I would give it a try. Many people have advised me to stick to three rows initially, but ‘initially’ depends on how rapidly I can progress.

I’m also aware that many people who play C-griff CBAs play Stradella bass with it. If I owned a C-griff accordion with Stradella bass or a converter, I’d be tempted to do the same. At this point, however, I don’t yet own a C-Griff accordion. As I’ve written before, if I live long enough, I might get one, and then, since I already would have learned C-aystem free bass, learning the C-Griff treble would be relatively easy.

There are things about the sequence of instruction in Ellegaard that would make no sense to somebody who recalls how they learned piano-accordion with Stradella bass. For example, and keeping C as a starting note, you work up to a two- octave chromatic scale using diagonals. Then you work the vertical rows. After that, and here’s the big departure from how piano-accordion with Stradella bass is taught, you get into diads, triads, aand four-note chords BEFORE moving into scales. Stradella drops the need for three-finger triads because of the ready-made chords. But for piano-accoedion, in the treble, scales are often introduced before considering intervals and chords. And in the bass, scales come WAY before bass-chord and chord-chord combinations. If someone were to try forming a triad with three fingers using the two bass rows in Stradella, depending on register, it would sound muddy,

When I began to learn C-system free bass using Ellegaard, I knew I would have to give up any notion left over from Stradella. I’m assuming the same would be true for any C-system free bass instruction book.But I’ll certainly look at others once I’m at a certain point in Ellegaard.

 

[JerryPH]

I've gone through the Ellegaard book. It is a bit spars on MUSIC but it is strong on beginner level technique. I would really consider this a beginner level book, something that an absolute newbie would start with. If you look at other method books, they basically all start out in roughly the same manner, though some up the difficulty levels almost on a per page basis... lol

There are many C-system free bass method books out there, Ellegard, Rudy Molinaro, Neofonic Bassetti, and all the great resources mentioned in a different thread here and even all basic piano music once you know where the notes are. What it takes is the dicipline to make it happen and devote the time, so no matter even if you have 100 method books, none help if you don't go through them A-Z in a methodical and systematic manner.

The trick is to learn the basics (location of notes, scales, arpeggios), and then intersperse music at a ratio of about 10 to 1 (exercises vs musical pieces) at the start and then move to a 5 to 1 ratio once intermediate and then once the basics are in place find all the music that moves you at the level you are at and move up... but always work on the foundations, even if it is the first or last 15-30 minutes of your day.

Personally, I am trying out something new to me:
- each day that I play (which is not every day, but I am trying), start each day with 15 minutes of exercises
- work on ONE song for 30 minutes
- work on a SECOND song for 30 minutes
- continue until I feel I want to stop. If I have done 1 hour, thats FINE... more is better of course.

Secret sauce:
- To end the practice session, I do an exercise like perhaps a HANON and repeat it 5 times medium speed, then keep upping the speed until I burn my fingers out. Do it with 3 exercises. Remember which ones you have done, don't use the same ones but different ones... example, start with #1, #2, #3 then next day do #4, #5, #6, etc. The goal is to really push your limits and completely tire yourself out. Initially most will be able to do that in about 3-5 minutes, I am up to 15 minutes before my forearm muscles burn and fingers so tired I cannot play.

A high-level view of the goals... The practicing of the pieces is very focused and methodical. Once the technical aspects are done from start to end, the book is closed and I work on memorization and personal embellishments. Once comfortable with that, the song gets placed in to a different playlist (Repertiore) and reviewed once every couple of weeks. (let's see if that helps my overall repertiore retention and # of pieces). I'm mixing old pieces that I have played in the past with new pieces. My goal is to raise my playing to the next level, where ever that takes me.

 

[JerryPH]

The scale fingerings of the modern chromatic accordion (C system) have developed since Ellegarde's book, and thumb use on the left hand is promoted.

Remember, Ellegaard was a C-system Free Bass and piano accordion right hand, its not "optimized" for a CBA. Playing using the thumb on the C-system left hand is near impossible unless you have a very specific accordion, and 100% impossible on an MIII system.

 

[Walker]

Remember, Ellegaard was a C-system Free Bass and piano accordion right hand, its not "optimized" for a CBA. Playing using the thumb on the C-system left hand is near impossible unless you have a very specific accordion, and 100% impossible on an MIII system.

Hi Jerry, the friendly suggestion I was making to Alan is that the technique and fingering used on a 3 row free bass (left hand) like Ellegaard's book is not the technique that would be considered suitable on a 4 row free bass accordion (left hand), which is what Alan uses.

As a little background, I would advise the Mogens Ellegaard was actually a button accordion player, not a piano accordionist, as you suggest.. In his early days he played an MIII Gola button accordion before he worked with Pigini to develop a chromatic converter instrument. Almost all chromatic converters now use 4 rows of minor 3rds.
​

 

[JerryPH]

Thanks Stewart... no I was referring to his PDF book that many people have, it's more for PA than CBA (even the pics and fingering refer to it), sorry if I was not clear.

C-system 3-row vs 4-row... well, if you know 3-row, you can play the 4 row as the 4th row is copy of the 1st row just pushed over 1 button, so to speak. Its not the most effective way to play a 4-row for sure. Now, this "old horse" is stuck on the MIII treadmill and happy for it, and that is for no other reason other than that is where I started.

At this point in my life, I have no desire to change, plus at this point I am so heavily invested financially and pretty much all other ways, that it would make no sense to change either my left or right hand system... lol I am not even overly concerned about how little I can do with it. I can admire that you are more open minded than I am in trying out other systems and even belting out a tune on other systems, so kudos to you for that.

In terms of someone new to a "system" a knowledgeable instructor really is the fastest and most effective way to learn, on this I cannot agree more.

Finding that person is the big challenge here in North America. I am continually pleasantly surprised at how much more popular the accordion is in Europe than here. For example, there is 10 times more accordion love in the Netherlands than there is in Canada, and we have to be near triple the population... lol

 

[losthobos]

I keep hearing these different terminologies for free bass layout but I'm pretty clueless when it comes to differentiation...
How does the top three rows of a french 3x3 stradella layout compare and what would the title given be...is this ellegaard map...
Ie from C, adjacent and up one row is B adjacent and up one row is Bb...
Next to G (as stradella) , adjacent and up one row F#, adjacent and up one row F
Etc....
I've tried to find pics but all seem to be typexed out...
Sorry for my ineptitude....
I think the French 3x3 offers best of both worlds but I may be missing something....

 

[petch]

Playing using the thumb on the C-system left hand is near impossible unless you have a very specific accordion

Strongly disagree! There's nothing stopping you from using your thumb on the first row. There are some free bass converters with a strongly stepped first row so you can use your thumb on the 2nd row as well

I keep hearing these different terminologies for free bass layout but I'm pretty clueless when it comes to differentiation...
How does the top three rows of a french 3x3 stradella layout compare and what would the title given be...is this ellegaard map...
Ie from C, adjacent and up one row is B adjacent and up one row is Bb...
Next to G (as stradella) , adjacent and up one row F#, adjacent and up one row F
Etc....
I've tried to find pics but all seem to be typexed out...
Sorry for my ineptitude....
I think the French 3x3 offers best of both worlds but I may be missing something....

The problem with French 3x3 is you're still limited to a single octave, whereas a converter will have a range between 3 to almost 5 octaves

Here is the layout of a typical C system converter


although mine has the two rows of standard bass (5th and 6th rows) shifted one button to the left, and you don't get the low Eb or high D and Eb either

 

[JerryPH]

Strongly disagree! There's nothing stopping you from using your thumb on the first row. There are some free bass converters with a strongly stepped first row so you can use your thumb on the 2nd row as well

You are referring to a converter where the first row is at the bottom where for me at least, its doable but NOT comfortable or easy... but I was speaking for myself, on an MIII, it is pretty much impossible, and in truth for me at my level... something I can live with.


Thumb cannot be used without pressing a whole lot of Stradella with the hand, without event considering the bend that would be needed at the wrist, the arm is pushed in half way to the elbow.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

To Jerry and Walker (and others if you’re interested):

PLAY NICE, CHILDREN!

Seriously, I’ve been following the conversation since my name was mentioned and I started the thread.

I had a career as a teacher of homebound children. They ranged between first grade and high school. In my last decade, I was chosen to specialize in high school sciences and math and some SAT prep in computer science. Although I retired in 1996 and have forgotten a lot of the subject matter by now, I can still spot a good instructional sequence. Ellegaard isn’t perfect; I suspect that no method book in any area is perfect, but for as far as it goes, it fits my learning style (teaching homebound kids also meant individualizing lessons to fit each student and that was something our program stressed.)

I know all about the fourth and fifth row and their relationships to the first and second row, but for now, I’ll stick to the first three rows. I’m sure that when the time comes, I’ll be able to go to rows 4 and 5 for greater flexibility. By the way, Jerry, I’m using the 4x to do this, and my accordion dealer, with whom I’m friendly, knows that down the line I’ll be asking him to get me a CBA. He doesn’t ordinarily stock them, but he suggested starting on a Roland FR-1xb when I do.

Now, about using the thumb on row 1, I’ve heard about stepped bass keyboards, but I’ve also heard that they would be a custom order. Still it’s interesting. Thumb on row 1 in both treble and bass sounds like it would be an advantage, but in would mean another adjustment by the time I’d get to it. But then, in Stradella bass, I’ve switched from 3-2 to 4-3 and back again more times than I can count and it wasn’t difficult.

But the foundational question is why C-system? If I’ve used Stradella bass up until now, why not quint? I can only suggest looking at a diagram of C-system and imagine doing a chromatic scale on it as to the same for a diagram of quint. And, although B-System is another chromatic system, it’s rare here in the USA. I see new C-Griff accordions for sale and marked “Sold” but a lot of used B-Griff accordions chronically for sale and never sold at USA based sites.

Walker, I appreciate your advice. If I need method books that cover the fourth, and even the fourth and fifth rows, I’ll keep your suggested books in mind. For now, I want to concentrate on the first three rows.

 

[JerryPH]

Relax Alan, Stewart and I are friends and we along with Petch and others were all sharing opinions.
We're all the better for the sharing of them all, at least I am.

 

[Walker]

Jerry is a very good friend of mine, we can talk openly about music.

Now, I understand why he particularly associates the MIII with the piano accordion. Thing is, back in the day when Ellegaard was writing about MIII technique, he was playing, in my opinion, a better accordion in the CBA button Gola MIII than the later converter instruments that he developed with Pigini. In quality and tone the later instruments seem a step down and I'm not convinced the improved ergonomics fully make up for that.

There is also a lovely 1960s video on YouTube of an Orchestral work (in progress) by the contemporary composer Ole Schmidt, for Ellegaard. It gives us an insight into the orchestral setting and the accordion as solo instrument. It's worth viewing for those with a serious interest. I find this video particularly interesting as I am studying contemporary composition right now with a composer at Cardiff University, specifically for my solo instrument, piano accordion with Quint free bass. Sometimes, Alan when we simply apply our instrument to actual musical situations, we realise the perceived limitations begin to evaporate and we can write interesting and sophisticated music.

I can see Alan you have some clear ideas on how to select and learn accordion systems. Once a teacher, always a teacher! Best of luck with that. Maybe in time you will share some of your music with us too.

BTW: I just submitted my first "contemporary" piece to my tutor yesterday. I may yet share it here. He said it has echoes of surrealism.... On second thoughts, I might wait til Halloween before unveiling it. Ben and Jerry, I'll email you guys a copy. All feedback appreciated!​

 

[Alan Sharkis]

Walker, I never considered composing anything, but I greatly admire those who do. I do wish you well in your studies. From time to time I hear people say that all the good ideas in Western music have already been used. What nonsense!

I thought that you and Jerry were truly at odds about the topic of the Pigini Ellegaard models vs. the MIIIs and also about the instructional material. Not having any experience with either accordion, I won’t comment. Since both you and Jerry convinced me that you’re friends, I’ll just leave it at that.

It’s interesting that many players use chromatic free bass with a piano treble and that there are also players that use a chromatic treble with Stradella bass. I looked at the stats of small Fisitalia models with C-Griff treble and converter bass, but I rejected that idea because the registers were selected by chin switches with no switches on the treble grill. I have no experience with chin switches, and learning to use them would be another complication. So, maybe my dealer’s advice to buy a Roland FR-1xb is my best solution after I’m somewhat comfortable with C-system free bass.