Does Free-Bass hinder interest/development in the Stradella?

[BobM]

As per the heading, does Free-bass hinder interest/development in the Stradella? I believe it does; because it suggests that if an accordionist wishes to play anything interesting on the LH, that the free-bass is the only way to do it.

This is not true, and I dont understand why much better players than me (5 years now) seem only able to play a one bass one chord rhythm, i.e. no short joining runs, inversions or even Dominant alternate bass notes, and these details are all transferable from row to row, so only have to be learnt once..

Is the stradella LH just something that has to be endured, and that effective and interesting bass is only for serious musicians with free-bass?

Old thread.


As someone that did the conservatory thing and till today still owns a free bass instrument, the obvious answer is no, it does not hinder interest nor development in Stradella. For me, in my own experience, thats as simple as it gets.

If life was only this simple..

BobM.

 

[JerryPH]

If life was only this simple..

Life is only as difficult as you decide to make it.

Kidding aside, It should be evident that no one tool can do everything, but if one tool is all that you need to accomplish your particular task, using it well gives good results and you dont need anything else. Once one accepts this, then add the important points of knowing what the advantages are between two or more tools, then you spend less time wondering about obscure questions and focus on the answers to better questions... like what are MY needs and what are the right tools that answer my needs?

Some people dont have a need for Free Bass, some dont need Stradella... heck, some dont even need the bass part at all because perhaps they are in a band or orchestra and can still be serious musicians!

I think that the comment Is the stradella LH just something that has to be endured, and that effective and interesting bass is only for serious musicians with free-bass is not a good question. It should be obvious that the answer is a resounding no!. There is also the fact that there are physical limitations. Yes, you can play interesting bass (love that expression), but you cannot play (for example) a 4 octave range of interesting bass.

Besides that, it is not the kind of bass system used that defines one as a serious musician, it is the person themselves, irrespective of if they use Stradella, Free Bass, or no bass at all. That, and obviously it depends on the level of expertise one has in any system that more defines if it should be endured or not. Poorly played Free Bass sucks just as much as badly played Stradella. Trust me, on bad days, I send the neighborhood cats running away down the street screaming in pain as I practice... lol

I dont see Stradella and Free Bass as competitors, but as complimentary. Each one adds something the other cannot to my music that I enjoy. I acknowledge the limitations of each system and work with both so that in my music I can express that music without the limitations of one side or the other. I also say (said) in my experience, because I cannot speak to the needs of anyone else other than myself.

 

[debra]

Everything has a place. I have only done a few dozen solo performances (real solo or soloist for a non-accordion band) in my life and in those there was a mix of stradella and free bass. I mostly either conduct or play in small or large accordion ensembles and orchestras. I arrange most of the music and always take into account what the players can do and what their instruments can do. As a result the arrangements for ensembles do occasionally require the use of stradella bass and occasionally require free bass as well. Although in an orchestra most of the time only the right hand is used I am really allergic to players who complain when an arrangement asks them to do something other with the left hand than just control the bellows. Essentially when you have an accordion quintet (4 accordions and one basson) there is room to occasionally have 9 different parts.

 

[BobM]

I think that the comment Is the stradella LH just something that has to be endured, and that effective and interesting bass is only for serious musicians with free-bass is not a good question.

Its quite obviously a rhetorical question.. and as the OP, valid to me, based on comments read over the years on this and other Accordion Forums.

 

[JerryPH]

Do you play an instrument with Free Bass, Bob and how can a rhetorical queston (a question NOT meant to have an aswer) be valid in this case when there are more valid and more important ones to ask about the topic? Do you sincerely believe that there are no "serious accordionists" in the Stradella world and that it is just something that has to be "endured"?

Not trying to be an ass, just asking to continue the conversation.

 

[donn]

Fine, but if on the 7th page, we're down to semantic nit-picking, maybe the conversation is ready to wind up.

It seems fairly clear from preceding pages that

1. the Stradella system is unbeatable for some things that may be played on accordion
2. free bass systems are unbeatable for some things that may be played on accordion
3. we don't all play the same repertoire or style
4. many accordion players make poor use of the left hand, and will, no matter what system comes with their accordion

Just guessing at the intent of the original post, it seems to me that it might be better served by setting forth some positive examples of Stradella bass techniques that might inspire some of us to escape from that last category and make better use of our left hands. I know that's been done, but might as well be a recurring feature. It probably doesn't lead to 7 page threads, but that's because it has a clear point. I think videos are kind of essential, but maybe that's just me.

 

[JerryPH]

It seems fairly clear from preceding pages that
1-the Stradella system is unbeatable for some things that may be played on accordion
2-free bass systems are unbeatable for some things that may be played on accordion
3-we dont all play the same repertoire or style
4-many accordion players make poor use of the left hand, and will, no matter what system comes with their accordion

All completely true and hard to deny.

Here is also a thought:
If your time spent on Free-Bass *is* in some way hindering your interest or development in Stradella as an accordionist, it is not the fault of the bass system, but that person themselves.

Does it hinder the development of music for Stradella people? Absolutely not. The exact number of people who are comfortable writing music for the Stradella system are still doing it today and it would be a rare exception where an arranger completely moves away from Stradella to Free-Bass exclusively.

Besides the fact that there are extremely few people on earth that even specialize in writing music for Free-Bass exclusively (where the biggest market would obviously be in educational material, and this material is DAMNED scarce!), there is the fact that, in a pinch, ordinary piano music could be used with fingering adjustments, making that market not only rare, but instantly bloody tight as well.

If anything, for an accordionist to whom this is a concern, the Free-Bass system should be indirectly helping your Stradella technique as it requires a level of flexibility and complexity of finger movement that does not exist in the Stradella system, enhancing your physical abilities. It also introduces additional ideas and concepts to people who are stuck thinking only ooom-pah, where a nice little bass line, bass solo run on the bass/counter-bass buttons would suddenly be just as interesting, if not more so.

The final point is numbers. How many Stradella accordions are out there vs Free-Bass accordions? I would have to say that overall, the Stradella has the wining numbers by a huge margin, hence the existence of any kind of imagined negative impact on Stradellas interest or development is totally baseless.

Ive said it before... the only way Free-Bass could hinder interest/development in the Stradella system is at the personal/individual level where that person BY CHOICE chooses to put a greater focus on one over the other, because of their choice in style of music or acknowledgement of the limitation of the Stradella to their own personal needs, not because one is better than the other.

I dont think we need to show a blazing Stradella performance to realize these truths, but it now does inspire me to spend some extra time concentrating on my Stradella technique and look where I could improve it in my own music.

 

[donn]

I dont think we need to show a blazing Stradella performance to realize these truths, but it now does inspire me to spend some extra time concentrating on my Stradella technique and look where I could improve it in my own music.

I could sure think of counters to a number of those propositions you call truths, but not this last one. The rest I think we could leave to someone for whom it really matters, which would not be you, me nor Bob, as we all are rather likely to go on doing as we have been doing regardless of any persuasions advanced here. Lets wait for someone who is genuinely confused over whether the Stradella system is worth bothering with, for a specific musical application.

 

[BobM]

I'll try a different tack, so bear with me,

Something seems to be stopping some Accordionists from using standard terms. The same ones which are successfully used by other instrumentalists, and because of their accepted use, information is more easily shared on forums and in printed media etc. I noticed their lack on the very first day that I viewed the old (now defunct) Accordion Forum. At the time I made a plea to the effect of, "how can we share quality knowledge without using common standard musical terms?"

If players are unaware of this shortcoming, and aren't making much headway and only have terms like "Oom pa" and "counterbass" (which is an a accordion only term*) for example, the idea that there is another system out there that apparently does it all may have a dampening effect, as in, is there another system out there that might be better or easier for me?

As a side note, I would never describe myself as being a good accordionist, maybe having left it a bit too late in life, but I find the Stradella bass liberating, not restricting.

BobM.

* Google Counterbass and then Mediant.

 

[JerryPH]

Ill try a different tack, so bear with me,

Gotcha.

Something seems to be stopping some Accordionists from using standard terms. The same ones which are successfully used by other instrumentalists, and because of their accepted use, information is more easily shared on forums and in printed media etc.

Specifically which terms that are pertinent to this thread?

If players are unaware of this shortcoming, and arent making much headway and only have terms like Oom pa and counterbass (which is an a accordion only term*)

What is wrong with using accordion terms in an accordion forum? Its using accordion terms on a Subaru forum that might get one a few strong comments in their inbox... lol

for example, the idea that there is another system out there that apparently does it all may have a dampening effect, as in, is there another system out there that might be better or easier for me?

But there *IS* another system of bass out there... wait, there are several different Free-Bass systems out there, and what is wrong with that? I see it as no greater an offence than having two or more different kinds of right hand systems too, since no one seems to think that is wrong to discuss the differences between button and piano accordion (look up BUTTON and PIANO, if you will, and see their relevance to accordions as well).

As a side note, I would never describe myself as being a good accordionist, maybe having left it a bit too late in life, but I find the Stradella bass liberating, not restricting.

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with you or anyone using the liberating Stradella system, in fact, good for you, as it is already one step above the people that dont use their left hand ever! This is obviously the system for you and what floats your boat.

Just like we all make a choice to first play the accordion, then make a choice to play either button or piano accordion, some will want to make the choice to play Free-Bass along with their Stradella, there is nothing sacrosanct about it.

And if you choose to add Free-Bass to the mix, you will see that it is about as impossible to forget about the existence of Stradella due to the fact that you are using Free-Bass as it is impossible to forget the right hand because you decided to learn and use the left hand.

In my conservatory days, there was no Stradella training there, as I had already well over a decade of experience with it and it was deemed that I concentrate on the Free-Bass, and I was ok with that, 100% of the effort to learning was placed on the 1st three rows of my left hand... BUT it was not 100% of what I played, as a lot of my music still used the Stradella bass, and it was always going to be used... for the simple reason that not one tool does everything... not even the Free-Bass hammer. {} {}

:ch

 

[donn]

It's the least of our problems. If someone hasn't heard counter-bass ever used in this sense before, it will be quickly obvious from the context what kind of thing it is. Since it's common usage, we can't seriously expect to do away with it, so we might as well enjoy it.

 

[dan]

Its the least of our problems. If someone hasnt heard counter-bass ever used in this sense before, it will be quickly obvious from the context what kind of thing it is.

Agree. I understand Bobs pet peeve regarding the ambiguous use of counterbass but never found it confusing, dont find mediant and supertonic any more helpful, and never had any urge to try free bass as a result. Much bigger obstacles to good LH accompaniment.
1. Finding instructional materials that demonstrates how to play bass scales and runs
2. Learning to read bass clef
3. Spending time with a keyboard chart so you know where to find the notes in the counterbass row
4. Developing the left hand dexterity to be able to play a bass run once you can read it
5. Developing the coordination to be able to play a bass run without screwing up the right hand
6. Applying these runs in the context of a lead sheet

I put off learning bass clef for four years. Switching to CBA gave me an excuse to try formal lesson books again, and the Galliano method book has a lot of LH content. I can now sight read simple bass runs, but the minute I add my right hand, it all goes to hell.

Its so much easier to play alternating bass-chord patterns on autopilot, no wonder so many players stick to that.

 

[losthobos]

I'm just gonna say I used to struggle to make the stradella sound much other than ommoah until BobM started pulling my left hand playing apart....his kindness and knowledge have been 'to use his term' liberating...
Let's not get tied up in knots over words...we'll choose descriptions that suit us...
However since Bob has always described left hand in tone values 1, 2,b3 etc it has made much more sense and easier to figure out lines.....mostly as its how we form/figure things on the right
Why differentiat between the two
Free the Bob

 

[dan]

However since Bob has always described left hand in tone values 1, 2,b3 etc it has made much more sense and easier to figure out lines.....mostly as its how we form/figure things on the right

yes numbers are a great way to approach Stradella and Ill certainly benefit from reading bobs previous thread on the subject