Designing a modern accordion with Weltmeister

[kimric]

Weltmeister approached me earlier this year to help design a new accordion. I have been to the factory a couple of times and have offered suggestions regarding technical issues over the years so they all ready knew who I was.
I spent last week at the factory with a man who has been designing accordions all his life and he has been working for ten years on this current accordion that they are hoping to release this year (tight deadline).
My job is to remove weight and improve action without affecting tone. We are also looking at aesthetics at the same time.
I will be going back in a month or so with the tests I have done and parts I have made.

Go ahead and ask questions.

Weltmeister factory
Discussion

Here is a newspaper article in German that I will leave you to translate about the project.
News article

 

[debra]

Good to see that they are open for suggestions to improve their accordions. The "discussion" picture still shows them using metal+felt pallets instead of wood+felt which is probably better, if only because of the wax connection used with that instead of the black silicone-rubber connection. So there is still a potential improvement right there...

 

[Deleted member 48]

Thank you for this information, and good luck with this Weltmeister project. 

Some historic examples of lightweight accordions could be an inspiration. 
Use of lightweight woods 
Reducing the weight of the bass machinery.

If you can reduce the weight of the reedplates this could help to reduce the weight. 
The reeds are lightweight, but some types of plates can be surprisingly heavy.

 

[kimric]

Good to see that they are open for suggestions to improve their accordions. The "discussion" picture still shows them using metal+felt pallets instead of wood+felt which is probably better, if only because of the wax connection used with that instead of the black silicone-rubber connection. So there is still a potential improvement right there...

There is argument right there but the rubber wrist on the pallet allows for self alignment as the pads settle and is generally lighter and quieter. The body we are using for the template is the Supita II.
 We are actively addressing weight issues and wood and wax are not really going to cut it in many cases.

 

[debra]

Good to see that they are open for suggestions to improve their accordions. The "discussion" picture still shows them using metal+felt pallets instead of wood+felt which is probably better, if only because of the wax connection used with that instead of the black silicone-rubber connection. So there is still a potential improvement right there...

There is argument right there but the rubber wrist on the pallet allows for self alignment as the pads settle and is generally lighter and quieter. The body we are using for the template is the Supita II.
 We are actively addressing weight issues and wood and wax are not really going to cut it in many cases.

Interesting... because all modern Italian professional accordions I know use wood and wax for the pallets. The wax allows for self alignment during production and later no adjustment should be needed at all, and I learned that this method provides the best leak-free seal. The rubber+metal has been common in Germany and Hohner even had Excelsior use it for the Hohner Morino series. Russian bayans also the rubber+metal. But the Italians don't.

 

[kimric]

Thank you for this information, and good luck with this Weltmeister project. 

Some historic examples of lightweight accordions could be an inspiration. 
Use of lightweight woods 
Reducing the weight of the bass machinery.

If you can reduce the weight of the reedplates this could help to reduce the weight. 
The reeds are lightweight, but some types of plates can be surprisingly heavy.

Some interesting things were done in the past but were abandoned due to expense or the technology not being readily available yet. I ran across a Bell with magnesium bass reed plates, and a late model Wurlitzer with a stamped magnesium body with some wood parts.
 There are better alloys available now but testing can get expensive and all of these things have a learning curve. I am having to spend a bunch of time testing to see how critical weight is to the tone, and there are issues with harmonic damping and how different metals can affect this.
 An example is how smaller accordions often need to have bridges between reed blocks on the right to damp out harmonics that can detune notes.

 

[jozz]

thanks for sharing this!

 

[OuijaBoard]

RE aesthetics, I hope they dont eliminate their rainbow of jewel-tone pearloid color choices. I love them. But I HATE the contrasting black background panel they put on the basses. Its tacky and hideous. And the white panel they used to use was horrible because it yellowed. The basses should have a pearloid back panel in the same color as the accordion.

I would like them to offer CBAs with the chassis the same size as Rubin PA (60bass MM) and Juwel (72bass LMM or MMM), BUT WITH 4 or 5 ROWS! In the past, small Welt CBAs have only had 3 rows.

In other news, I purchased a new Juwel last year. A wonderful emerald-green perloid with delightful sound, particularly in the LM, L, and Master. But the middle reeds....the airflow is choked and strangled once you get up to the A above middle C, and worsens for the rest of the higher notes. It is tendonitis-inducing to push harder on those notes. I hope it is a matter of the tongues not being set right and is fixable. Im so depressed and outraged over this that I havent taken it to a tech. This brand-new accordion is just sitting there.

 

[hais1273]

I bought a new red Kristall a couple of years ago. The right hand key board was good enough, the tone and action were satisfactory. However, the left hand keyboard was slow and imprecise when played energetically, a quick look revealed the bass machine was largely plastic. I think this may have been the root of the issue. IMHO the Kristal would be and is good for learning and new players but not really up to greater demands.

My wife hated the vynyl/plastic bass strap.  This was replaced with leather strap with a soft pad.

To summarize. I liked the weight, tone and size. I didn't like the left hand action or the vynyl bass strap.

Hope the new project is a success.

 

[Eddy Yates]

Good luck with the project, Kimric, and thanks for keeping the East Bay an accordion hub.
This caught my eye while looking for an accordion. Are you looking to cut even more weight than that?
http://www.accordiongallery.com/savoia-excelsior-cassotto

 

[AccordionUprising]

I would like an accordion designed for easily adding amplification. Ideally there would be a high quality amplification system available from the manufacturer. One necessary feature would be very quiet action on the bass and treble side. (Clicking and rattling, especially on the bass side, are a serious problem when using acoustic microphones.)

Ideally, an amplification system would offer the best available feedback prevention for use in louder situations.

 

[Deleted member 48]

Concerning total weight reduction, duraluminium is used for reedplates, keyboard mechanisms, bass mechanisms. 
Duraluminium contains some magnesium. 
It's strong and lightweight. 

The Weltmeister Supita II, a 120 bass PA with 4 voices in the treble and 4 voices in the bass side? 
I read it has a total net weight of 12,2 kilogram. 

If we compare with the Pigini Wing Superior 374, a 120 bass PA, 4 voices treble and 5 voices in the bass. The official Pigini website says it has a total net weight of 8,1 kg. ...

Is this correct? 
What parts inside these accordions are the cause of such a big difference. 

Or is it size of the body?

 

[kimric]

RE aesthetics, I hope they dont eliminate their rainbow of jewel-tone pearloid color choices.  I love them.  But I HATE the contrasting black background panel they put on the basses.  Its tacky and hideous.  And the white panel they used to use was horrible because it yellowed. The basses should have a pearloid back panel in the same color as the accordion.

I would like them to offer CBAs with the chassis the same size as Rubin PA (60bass MM) and  Juwel (72bass LMM or MMM), BUT WITH 4 or 5 ROWS!  In the past, small Welt CBAs have only had 3 rows.  

In other news, I purchased a new Juwel last year.  A wonderful emerald-green perloid with delightful sound, particularly in the LM, L, and Master.    But the middle reeds....the airflow is choked and strangled once you get up to the A above middle C, and worsens for the rest of the higher notes.   It is tendonitis-inducing to push harder on those notes.   I hope it is a matter of the tongues not being set right and is fixable.  Im so depressed and outraged over this that I havent taken it to a tech.  This brand-new accordion is just sitting there.

Sounds like the shifter slider is out of alignment, you should take it to the person you bout it from to get it adjusted.

 In 21 years I have never seen a 3 row CBA weltmeister. The romance 602 is the smallest they make and it is a 5 row. It has the not range of a 96 bass so it is not really possible to make smaller.

---

Concerning total weight reduction, duraluminium is used for reedplates, keyboard mechanisms, bass mechanisms. 
Duraluminium contains some magnesium. 
Its strong and lightweight. 

The Weltmeister Supita II, a 120 bass PA with 4 voices in the treble and 4 voices in the bass side? 
I read it has a total net weight of 12,2 kilogram. 

If we compare with the Pigini Wing Superior 374, a 120 bass PA, 4 voices treble and 5 voices in the bass. The official Pigini website says it has a total net weight of 8,1 kg. ...

Is this correct? 
What parts inside these accordions are the cause of such a big difference. 

Or is it size of the body?

I am not familiar with that Pigini but one difference I get from the info is that it is not a tone chamber instrument. This typically adds almost 1 kilo. Without taking one apart it is just speculation what was done.

Mag is about 30% lighter than Al and a little stiffer, since there is so much of it in a accordion it is worth looking at.

---

I would like an accordion designed for easily adding amplification.  Ideally there would be a high quality amplification system available from the manufacturer.  One necessary feature would be very quiet action on the bass and treble side. (Clicking and rattling, especially on the bass side, are a serious problem when using acoustic microphones.)

Ideally, an amplification system would offer the best available feedback prevention for use in louder situations.

The Supita has a pretty quiet action for its class but I am looking at a few things to improve on that.
I believe Weltmeister has a system they will install and there is plenty of room to install one since I offer my system on anything I sell and I have installed a few in Supitas.
Mic placement in the instrument can really affect the machine noise you get.

Feedback is a less controllable issue since it is always a unknown as to how the sound system will be used. Automatic feedback busters work in a limited sense but will leave dead spots in your sound if you make them do all the work and dont consider other sound issues like positioning of monitors and speakers.
 In ear monitors can help in some circumstances.

 

[kimric]

Good luck with the project, Kimric, and thanks for keeping the East Bay an accordion hub.
This caught my eye while looking for an accordion. Are you looking to cut even more weight than that?
http://www.accordiongallery.com/savoia-excelsior-cassotto

Did not realize those were so light, I serviced and sold one a few months ago.

 

[OuijaBoard]

[[[Sounds like the shifter slider is out of alignment, you should take it to the person you bout it from to get it adjusted.]]]

The shifter/slider/switches are fine. Somethings up with free air passage to the 8 or so highest notes on the 2 M reeds. Its the voicing or setting or something. Ive seen this on other accordions, usually Chinese-made, but never on a Welt.

[[[In 21 years I have never seen a 3 row CBA weltmeister.]]]
It was this one. It was sold in the 2000s. Not around any more.
https://worldsfinestpianos.com/store/weltmeister-franzosisches-knopf-chromatic-accordion-3460ii/

[[[The romance 602 is the smallest they make and it is a 5 row. It has the not range of a 96 bass so it is not really possible to make smaller.]]]]

They could make one with fewer notes than a 96 range, but still more notes than a 26-key PA: Could be done with 30 to 33 or 34 notes, a 4 or 5 row, in a chassis the size of that of a Perle or Rubin for a 2 voice. They could do the same in a chassis the size of a Juwel for a 3 voice.

A number of makers are doing this already in 2-voice CBAs. We need somebody to break the barrier and give us a small 3-voice with 60 or 72 basses and 4 or 5 rows.

 

[JeffJetton]

Hey Kimric,

This has nothing to do with weight (and would probably add a tiny amount), but since we're on the subject, here's a feature I've always thought would be cool:


On my Saphir (which I bought from you, BTW ), I can sort of "half-switch" the musette reeds by pressing the clarinet switch, then only partially pressing the violin switch. This opens the register slide only partly for the musette reeds (but keeps it fully open for the clarinet reeds), effectively giving me a less-wet sound than normal. 

It's a bit of a fiddly/inexact process. So what would be nice is something like a bike derailleur's limit screw that would let you adjust (ideally from the outside, easily, by hand) how open that particular register slide is, by default, when the switch is pressed. This effectively gives you a user-adjustable wetness knob.

 

[AccordionUprising]

Kimric,

Have you or anybody researched the Titano Combo 'Cordion models from the '60s that had a pitch bending feature? I think it was only on some higher end models of the Titano versions (not the Pancordion "Tiger" models with the swept keyboard).

I think they worked by restricting air-flow and allowing higher air pressure to make bending notes easier?

If it worked, bending notes might be a really cool feature. Dreaming.

 

[kimric]

Hey Kimric,

This has nothing to do with weight (and would probably add a tiny amount), but since were on the subject, heres a feature Ive always thought would be cool:


On my Saphir (which I bought from you, BTW ), I can sort of half-switch the musette reeds by pressing the clarinet switch, then only partially pressing the violin switch. This opens the register slide only partly for the musette reeds (but keeps it fully open for the clarinet reeds), effectively giving me a less-wet sound than normal. 

Its a bit of a fiddly/inexact process. So what would be nice is something like a bike derailleurs limit screw that would let you adjust (ideally from the outside, easily, by hand) how open that particular register slide is, by default, when the switch is pressed. This effectively gives you a user-adjustable wetness knob.

This has been available in the past and was marked on one instrument as Stortz. It might be possible to sacrifice a register to do this but I would need to alter the shifter plates.

---

Kimric,

Have you or anybody researched the Titano Combo Cordion models from the 60s that had a pitch bending feature? I think it was only on some higher end models of the Titano versions (not the Pancordion Tiger models with the swept keyboard).

I think they worked by restricting air-flow and allowing higher air pressure to make bending notes easier?

If it worked, bending notes might be a really cool feature. Dreaming.

Another poster asked about this, it can be done, it involves modifying the shifter plates for one of the switches. I had a excelsior with this feature many years ago.

---

I spent yesterday at my friends machine shop making reeds out of different alloys for testing. These will be used for sound comparison.
CNC cutting reed plates

 

[landro]

A bit late to the discussion but my foremost concern would be how to improve any current design and not add to the end cost of the product.  Improvements might be a lot easier made than containing the associated costs.
Personally I have to think a cost reduction of materials or labor would be even more important and might even be the goal in any design change .

 

[JeffJetton]

A bit late to the discussion but my foremost concern would be how to improve any current design and not add to the end cost of the product.  Improvements might be a lot easier made than containing the associated costs.
Personally I have to think a cost reduction of materials or labor would be even more important and might even be the goal in any design change .

That's a good point. Weltmeister currently sits in a spot in the market that I don't think any other manufacturer does. If the Hohner Bravo line were Wal-Mart, Weltmeister is Target... a step up, but still relatively affordable*. It would be a shame if they gave that position up.


*The Hohnica line would be, what, Dollar General? T.J. Maxx?