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Definition of "American tuning"

M

maugein96

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StargazerTony said:
Well, at least we now know that a dollar equals 4 Scottish accordions or 10 American accordions. It seems the louder they get the more cents they cost, or have I got it all wrong?

Don't know if you got it right or wrong, but I've been senselessly trying to make some sense out of this entire senseless matter but don't have enough sense to give a cent for it. What was the question again?



Had to consult a chart that we use to identify old Roman coins we still occasionally find in the garden. 

The only coins they had were Denarius, Sestertius, and Dupondius, so I don't know what the Romans used to measure the tuning of their accordions before the cent was invented. 

One of the coins I have still has legible wording on it. It says "nunc laudo libros de musica forum" My Latin is a bit rusty (like the coin), but I believe it means "never join a music forum". Seems that advice was sound in 55 B.C and before. 

With that I'm out of here, "diutissime".
 

StargazerTony

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I wonder if those old Romans only played Latin music on their old Roman accordions?

I vote for Dupondius. Like in "Say Claudius, your Dupondius is getting a bit to wet and big, and its hurting my small Dupondius.
 
M

maugein96

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StargazerTony said:
I wonder if those old Romans only played Latin music on their old Roman accordions?

I vote for Dupondius. Like in "Say Claudius, your Dupondius is getting a bit to wet and big, and its hurting my small Dupondius.

I'm not sure, but I've heard they were into Latin Jazz. The "Romans" who came here were mainly Belgians from the Batavian Republic, which was part of the Roman Empire. The military airliners in those days couldn't manage direct flights to us from Rome, so they just sent the Belgians across the sea. Looks like few of them brought their accordions with them, as I've only seen a handful of Belgian bass boxes in the UK. Legend has it that the Scotii stole some of them and re-tuned them to Scottish tuning, and by that means managed to chase the Batavians all away again, simply by standing playing them on top of Hadrian's Wall at full volume.   

Hadrian's Wall is near to where I live, but sadly the accordions have long gone. 

Incidentally, we were taught to count unus dupondius, duo dupondii. Our teachers participated avidly in old Roman plays and tried to teach us "perfect" pronunciation (how did they know what that would be?). I got thrown out of class one day for asking the teacher why she was teaching us to speak Latin with a Scottish accent. It was freezing that day and my toga had holes in it. Some people have no sense of humour at all, especially North Lanarkshire Romans. 

These are the coins we'll need to use after Brexit:- (not too keen on where Antonini may have kept his coins)

 

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StargazerTony

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Brexit! I forgot about that. I hope those old Romans have made accordion plans for when the UK leaves...or doesn't.

I feel sorry for you. Learning Latin with a Roman accent was hard enough for me. Can't begin to wonder about trying to learn it with a Scottish one.

Not sure about your toga problem. Some of the best despicable events in college happened in a toga, or at least started in one.
 
M

maugein96

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StargazerTony said:
Brexit! I forgot about that. I hope those old Romans have made accordion plans for when the UK leaves...or doesn't.

I feel sorry for you. Learning Latin with a Roman accent was hard enough for me. Can't begin to wonder about trying to learn it with a Scottish one.

Not sure about your toga problem. Some of the best despicable events in college happened in a toga, or at least started in one.

Brexit is only the start of it. Our Scottish Nationalists also want a split from the UK after all the excitement dies down. Then our town will probably want independence from Scotland, as our closest city is in England. Then one part of the town will want independence from the other, etc, etc. I tried that before. I eventually got independence from my first wife, but it took 14 years and cost me a lot of money.

Latin was only a major subject for two years of my "education". Most of us had to leave school at 15 (nowadays 16) to work and supplement the family income, as Scotland has never been exactly full of wealthy types (at least not those of us who were born here). Our particular Scottish regional accent was spiced up with vocabulary from Ulster, as most of us were actually of Irish descent. Some knowledge of Latin served me well when I was labouring on construction sites and driving buses, but was of no use at all for trying to teach myself CBA. 

I've heard of toga parties, but they were for the sort of people who excel in leading their countries, like the very well respected mob who are currently just about to wipe us off the face of the earth. Between them they couldn't agree on where the best place was to put a nose on somebody's face, in case somebody was a millimetre out, or the skin tone didn't match. 

It was a shame that boilersuit parties just never seemed to have that same romantic appeal.
 

JeffJetton

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StargazerTony pid=64562 dateline=1553772384 said:
Back to the topic somewhat. Somewhere I came across this list and stole it fare and square. Now I realize that wetness is sort of a personal thing but...

[font=Roboto, Arial, sans-serif]0 hz = 0 cents = Unison[/font]
[font=Roboto, Arial, sans-serif]0.5hz = 2 cents = Concert[/font]
[font=Roboto, Arial, sans-serif]1hz = 4 cents = Swing[/font]
[font=Roboto, Arial, sans-serif]2hz = 7 cents = Demi-Swing, Irish[/font]
[font=Roboto, Arial, sans-serif]2.5hz = 10 cents = American, Cajun, Quebecois[/font]
[font=Roboto, Arial, sans-serif]3hz = 12 cents = Slovenian, Tex-Mex [/font]
[font=Roboto, Arial, sans-serif]4hz = 15 cents = German, Italian[/font]
[font=Roboto, Arial, sans-serif]5hz = 18 cents = French[/font]
[font=Roboto, Arial, sans-serif]6hz = 22 cents = Old French, Old Italian[/font]
[font=Roboto, Arial, sans-serif]7hz = 25 cents = Scottish[/font]

My understanding is that the wetness of two reeds is not exactly the same for every note. It changes as you move up and down the keyboard/buttons, doesnt it?

So, for a chart like this, I wonder what the reference note is? For example, if I have a swing-tuned accordion, which note should I play and expect to get about a 1hz beat? The A above middle C maybe?



maugein96 pid=64567 dateline=1553809450 said:
These are the coins well need to use after Brexit

As an aside, youd think Id know more about old European coins than I do, given my name. :p
 
M

maugein96

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Jeff,

You're right. A above middle C is what they use as the base for the "diapason" (we're speaking ancient Greek now)

To maintain a balance in the octaves above and below, adjustments in the degree of "wetness" are carried out. I know some tuners use a chart to achieve that, but I'm sure they will ultimately use their ear to make any final adjustments.

I've never tuned an accordion and have never even seen anybody tuning one so it's beyond my experience and knowledge.

Our UK currency system was still loosely based on the Roman system until 1971, and until 1960 you needed 576 farthings to make up one pound Sterling. Farthings were taken out of circulation that year, as they were effectively worthless by then.

They kept it going for so long because it was easier to to divide compared to decimal where you end up with units of 5. The Romans had worked that one out. For many years after 1971 people still illegally "passed" old currency coins in change, and it was a nightmare, as they some made some of the old coins were exactly the same size as the new ones for a while.

In Scotland we still use Roman Law instead of English Law, but they stopped imposing fines in Roman currency some years ago.
 
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maugein96

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Glug pid=64575 dateline=1553874953 said:
Theres actually a fair amount of info on musette tuning curves in Accordion Revival part 3: http://accordionrevival.com/ACCORDION_REPAIR_3.php
(just look for beat progression).

I did have a better reference but I cant find it at the moment, and its almost beer oclock.

Gareth,

Musette tuning has been the subject of much debate over the years. I dont really know much about accordion history, but it would appear to be the case that the earliest accordions nearly all had some kind of detuning in the name of amplification. If you listen to some of the very early recordings of the accordion youll probably get some idea of why the instrument declined in popularity over the years. 

Only places, other than Asia, where the accordion still seems to have a particularly strong following, are South America, the Balkans, and Russia, where a musette is a type of rucksack, and accordions emit sounds that are a bit easier on the ears of the general public. Of course that is my opinion, and Ive never really been a 25 cent man. I grew up listening to accordions tuned like that, and that was one of the reasons I waited for 32 years before I started playing one. The first three were musette tuned, and nearly drove me to distraction. Strongest one I now have is 8 cents americain, and even then I sometimes wish it was only about 6 cents. Each to their own. 

Enjoy your beer!
 

wirralaccordion

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maugein96 pid=64577 dateline=1553886958 said:
Glug pid=64575 dateline=1553874953 said:
Theres actually a fair amount of info on musette tuning curves in Accordion Revival part 3: http://accordionrevival.com/ACCORDION_REPAIR_3.php
(just look for beat progression).

I did have a better reference but I cant find it at the moment, and its almost beer oclock.

Gareth,

Musette tuning has been the subject of much debate over the years. I dont really know much about accordion history, but it would appear to be the case that the earliest accordions nearly all had some kind of detuning in the name of amplification. If you listen to some of the very early recordings of the accordion youll probably get some idea of why the instrument declined in popularity over the years. 

Only places, other than Asia, where the accordion still seems to have a particularly strong following, are South America, the Balkans, and Russia, where a musette is a type of rucksack, and accordions emit sounds that are a bit easier on the ears of the general public. Of course that is my opinion, and Ive never really been a 25 cent man. I grew up listening to accordions tuned like that, and that was one of the reasons I waited for 32 years before I started playing one. The first three were musette tuned, and nearly drove me to distraction. Strongest one I now have is 8 cents americain, and even then I sometimes wish it was only about 6 cents. Each to their own. 

Enjoy your beer!
Strongest one I now have is 8 cents americain, and even then I sometimes wish it was only about 6 cents. Each to their own.

I dont know whether I would be able to tell the difference between 8 cents and 6 cents! Probably Paul deBra would!
 
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maugein96

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Phil,

The only way you can tell is if you actually play boxes with those tunings. One of my French accordions is about 4.4 cents and the other is 8 cents. I also have two other accordions, one of which (LMM) is supposed to be unison, and the other is about 17 cents (MM)

There is quite a difference in tone even between 4.4 and 8 cents, with 8 cents being considerably "brighter" than the swing 4.4. The swing tuned box was my first venture with that tuning, and to me it just doesn't cut it at all. It needs taken up to about 6 cents to brighten it up just a shade, but it's an old box and the reeds have been in a lot of smoke filled venues. It's entirely possible that the reeds have had their day, although it's a lovely instrument to play. 

The unison box I have has one or two reeds out of tune, which is very noticeable in a box like that. When you select MM over M all you really notice is an increase in volume. I do believe one of the reed banks is tuned very slightly sharp to give just a hint of vibrato, but with those reeds being out of tune it's difficult to tell. I've had the box a long time and it isn't worth a refurb.

The 17 cent job is just a cupboard filler. With tuning as wide as that on MM reeds the slightest tuning irregularity is more noticeable than on a MMM, and I have issues with two reeds in the sharp tuned bank. A quick spot tune would possibly sort it, but an even quicker fix would be a gallon of petrol and a match. It is a Chinese made Hohner which looks and sounds as though it was made out of wood that was too inferior to make chopsticks with. I know they make some fantastic instruments, and I have two guitars that were made in China that I'd never part with. If they ever train the guitar makers to make accordions then they'll have a winning combination.   

Glad I no longer have any boxes with MMM reeds, as the price of petrol here is pretty dire!
 

wirralaccordion

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maugein96 said:
Phil,

The only way you can tell is if you actually play boxes with those tunings. One of my French accordions is about 4.4 cents and the other is 8 cents. I also have two other accordions, one of which (LMM) is supposed to be unison, and the other is about 17 cents (MM)

There is quite a difference in tone even between 4.4 and 8 cents, with 8 cents being considerably "brighter" than the swing 4.4. The swing tuned box was my first venture with that tuning, and to me it just doesn't cut it at all. It needs taken up to about 6 cents to brighten it up just a shade, but it's an old box and the reeds have been in a lot of smoke filled venues. It's entirely possible that the reeds have had their day, although it's a lovely instrument to play. 

The unison box I have has one or two reeds out of tune, which is very noticeable in a box like that. When you select MM over M all you really notice is an increase in volume. I do believe one of the reed banks is tuned very slightly sharp to give just a hint of vibrato, but with those reeds being out of tune it's difficult to tell. I've had the box a long time and it isn't worth a refurb.

The 17 cent job is just a cupboard filler. With tuning as wide as that on MM reeds the slightest tuning irregularity is more noticeable than on a MMM, and I have issues with two reeds in the sharp tuned bank. A quick spot tune would possibly sort it, but an even quicker fix would be a gallon of petrol and a match. It is a Chinese made Hohner which looks and sounds as though it was made out of wood that was too inferior to make chopsticks with. I know they make some fantastic instruments, and I have two guitars that were made in China that I'd never part with. If they ever train the guitar makers to make accordions then they'll have a winning combination.   

Glad I no longer have any boxes with MMM reeds, as the price of petrol here is pretty dire!
Hi John,
As you know my Brandoni now gives me four tunings so I am going to have another LMM accordion tuned to 10 cents on the sharp clarinet reed. That will give me five options i.e. 0, 5, 10, 16 and 21 cents on the 2 accordions. If I understand you correctly it doesn't seem to matter too much what the accordion actually is or least it matter less so than the tuning.
Phil
 
M

maugein96

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Phil,

I think most of us just tend to stick with what we have, even although we sometimes wish we had something else!

I've only ever had one box retuned and it was an LMM tuned down from about 10 or 11 to 8 cents. The rest of them that never suited me were just moved on. What I was meaning was that in my own limited experience the exact same reeds may tend to sound different in another accordion. The way my two French boxes are constructed it wouldn't be possible to swap the reed blocks over, as one has 49 treble notes and the other has 55.

If I had the knowledge and skill I could possibly cobble up what I thought would suit by swapping individual reeds over, but most of us, especially me, would baulk at that.

Don't know precisely what you are saying, but certain tunings seem to work better with some boxes than on others. IMHO My 4.5 cent Cavagnolo would suit the 8 cent tuning my Maugein has, and vice versa, as the Maugein is the "brighter" sounding of the two. However, I don't think I would chance the experiment, especially as I've just had the Maugein done.

Your tuner got that Brandoni spot on and I would certainly trust him to make a decent job out of whatever you wanted to do with the LMM. UK tuners are not really comfortable working with French instruments and nailed on reeds, but that is something I cannot do anything about.
 

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