Alternating Bass Fingering

[artidots]

Ok so I am working my way along the excellent Palmer Hughes tutor books, currently Book 2.

I have chosen the 433 (in waltz time) style Bass fingering for Fundamental / Major chord buttons and 4323 for alternating Fundamental / Major chord, (page 8) which seems ok (ish !).

On page 34 we come to the minor chords fingered Fundamental / Minor chord 422 (e.g. waltz) …..ok.

Then at the bottom of that page 'Alternating Basses with Minor chords …… but no fingering suggestions anywhere. Surely not 4222. Is it 4232, suppose it must be ?

Sorry, am I being thick here ?

Reassurance / help anyone ? Thanks a lot in anticipation.

I am dead keen to get this sorted as I badly want to re-set and post on here a version of Bandura Waltz in Gm, PA style score (new to me) and with alternating bass. It's a neat tune and not too difficult in the bass, bars in pairs D, Gm, Cm so I have more or less got there with it even without the dots (but only straight bass so far and I want to try 'alternating').

 

[BobM]

Is it 4232, suppose it must be ?

Yes, and Mighty Accordion is great for this type of info. Getting to grips with alternate bass notes is the key to creating interesting bass lines with very little effort.

BobM.

 

[artelagro]

I hope this does not stray too far from the original topic but I was so disappointed by the above mentioned book entitled ‘The Mighty Accordion’ that I must pass on my views and hopefully save others from getting their hopes up that their left hand problems are about to be solved.
The author must have spent a lot of time and effort producing this reference book which spans such a wide field but his omission of the melody makes me think that someone has removed the important pages.
There are lots of accordion tutors on the market and the ‘not so good’ ones can be discarded by the pupils without much thought. Unfortunately, there appears to be only one current publication which concentrates on the bass side and this by default becomes THE bass tutorial.
The David Mackenzie books (Buttons & Keys and Ceilidh Collection) and The Ian Lowthian book ‘Scottish Folk Tunes’ all contain bass sections which can stand alone. This makes them interesting to listen to, learn, and finally integrate into the melody – something badly missing from the above tutor.
I accept that this is only one view. Now I am about to be proved wrong.
Garth

 

[ChrisH]

I entirely agree that the 'Mighty Accordion' book is over-rated. As a beginner/improver it seemed to me that material fell into two categories... a) exercises that were far too simple, and b) advanced techniques that were way beyond my skill level.

The included CDs are particularly uninspiring as they merely mirror the written exercises, and provide no 'play-along' experience whatsoever.

Chris

 

[BobM]

The author must have spent a lot of time and effort producing this reference book which spans such a wide field but his omission of the melody makes me think that someone has removed the important pages.
Garth

This IS a reference book, and the title really is misleading, The Mighty Stradella might be more accurate. And yes, there are no melodies, it would be impossible to have them for every chord combination in the book.

Unfortunately, I cant lay my hands on my copy at the moment, but I seem to remember that there is an explanation at the beginning of some of the ways that it can be used.

This book comes in handy when you get stuck for a particular chord for the first time, or to practice chord sequences on their own, It covers chords that turn up in jazz and other styles, and even though I have no interest in playing jazz, I like to use some of the chords sometimes.

IMO, Its the sort of book that comes in handy to dip into once in a while, even if youve managed to get through it, just to practice playing clean bass parts.

 

[lasvegascolonel]

Getting back to your original concerns, artidots, I am currently using Book 3 of the Palmer-Hughes course and it does seem while they give the option of 3232 or 4323 in major chords, they aren't too specific on minor. I learned the 32 system 50 years ago but am relearning with 43 as it doesn't require moving the hand up as much during alternating basses. So, for alternating basses with minor chords, I use the 4232. In fact, in Book 3, they want you stretching that to the 7 chords. I never even knew there were alternating 7 chords. And using counterbasses is really challenging (for me).

 

[goldtopia]

I agree the Mighty Accordion Book is over rated. I believe a teacher is better than any tuition book. One of the first things a teacher will teach you is alternate bass it takes a little practice but when mastered becomes essential in ones playing. Even if you just have a few lessons thats better than any book. When you have learnt aternate base tuition books are then more useful for the odd tips for finger experimenting. Counter base is easier for people who have learnt to read music on the piano but you still have to learn where the buttons are.

 

[BobM]

I've been right through this book, and use quite a bit of it. At around £14 when I bought it, it's far cheaper than a one hour lesson with a decent teacher. You can use it as a reference book, like a dictionary or thesaurus, or work right through it as clearly stated in the book's opening introduction.

It's full of information, and whist not perfect (nothing on LH scales), is good to have around. How many times does the "min chord off the counter bass" query come up on this forum?

The CD's are audio examples, not play alongs.

As an example, the last time I used it was to help in working out a descending bass line for the second section of "The Skye Boat Song".

 

[BobM]

I am dead keen to get this sorted as I badly want to re-set and post on here a version of Bandura Waltz in Gm, PA style score (new to me) and with alternating bass. Its a neat tune and not too difficult in the bass, bars in pairs D, Gm, Cm so I have more or less got there with it even without the dots (but only straight bass so far and I want to try alternating).

In this video usually when playing the two D chords, she plays the first bar using its counter bass, which is the F sharp. I would use the 4th finger for this, before crossing back to the root position for the second D chord.
The D chord over the F sharp printed out, looks like D/F♯, which is also known as a first inversion chord.

 

[artidots]

In this video usually when playing the two D chords, she plays the first bar using its counter bass, which is the F sharp. I would use the 4th finger for this, before crossing back to the root position for the second D chord.
The D chord over the F sharp printed out, looks like D/F♯, which is also known as a first inversion chord.[/quote]

Thanks for the great link BobM, I really loved that. Her version has a few more fills and runs etc than my straight version which came from a Fiddle site originally. I am still studying the fingers she uses on the bass (which can just about see).

Thanks too, for the helpful comment about chords and fingering. I am still going to do my own reset and put it in here for those that may not know it, as it is a great Accordion tune obviously. It will be 2 or 3 weeks though as we are Narrowboating on the Shropshire Union Canal shortly for a wee holiday followed by a spot of walking up there.

Having looked at all the comments about Mighty Accordion I still think I might invest in that as a good source of reference …… I can never get enough books about topics I am keen on !

 

[BobM]

Thanks for the feedback. Heres a link for someone how demonstrates 4:3 fingering very. Scroll down to the first few lessons.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMo0op_SFCvfXVGmd3cefGg/videos

I think I read a post from you about playing with a Morris side? If so, it might be better if you went for something more specific to you needs. Im a bit of a musical pluralist and so TMA book suits me well, but you could always buy from Amazon and return it if it looks too dense.

Also a good trad based book that has a lot of tunes, uses 4:3 LH, with an explanation of Alternate bass, RH fingering throughout. Dont be put off by the title...

http://www.mally.com/details.asp?id=106

Sounds like a nice holiday..

 

[artidots]

Thanks for the feedback. Heres a link for someone how demonstrates 4:3 fingering very. Scroll down to the first few lessons.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMo0op_SFCvfXVGmd3cefGg/videos

I think I read a post from you about playing with a Morris side? If so, it might be better if you went for something more specific to you needs. Im a bit of a musical pluralist and so TMA book suits me well, but you could always buy from Amazon and return it if it looks too dense.

Also a good trad based book that has a lot of tunes, uses 4:3 LH, with an explanation of Alternate bass, RH fingering throughout. Dont be put off by the title...

http://www.mally.com/details.asp?id=106

Sounds like a nice holiday..

Wow, good stuff. I looked at lesson 14 …. really good explanation about bass fingering etc. Thanks for that. Will look some more.

I have retired from playing for Morris now apart from playing, by invitation, the apres sessions in the pub afterwards (one PA there at the moment). These days it is very much French traditional dance (including a lot of time spent re-setting tune scores and harmonies for the leader, who happens to be a really good PA player) with the Club Band on English Concertinas and Melodeons (and Fiddle in Marjories case), spots at the local sing-around club/s, pub sessions etc. We like ancient French and English music, especially duets, Maggots etc and Playford of course. We love Hurdy Gurdies and each have one, but have largely given up on them partly owing to the amount of time needed in keeping them sounding sweet…… a puppy 21 months ago demanding much of our time, was very much the cause of that. I am threatening to sell mine (Gurdy, not the dog) to fund a Fantini PA.

Between us we have a good long experience of musical theory and knowledge. The challenge is acquiring the skills to play our PA well enough to take it (? them !??) out for the events mentioned above. What is so much a delight we think is that the PA is not only fully chromatic (a big nuisance at times with diatonic Melodeon and Gurdy, why will people insist on stringing tunes together with uncaring key mixes) but that it is capable of providing a substantial and varied accompaniment in the bass, to coin the cliche a band in a box. (to us it also sounds just great !)

Interestingly we notice in our small circle a steadily increasing number of PAs - now 5 in the monthly French Club band (not us yet), 4 (different ones) in the local fortnightly Sing-around Club, and yet 2 more different ones in a local monthly session. Until recently we have taken little serious note of these, but of course now we are keen to make better acquaintance. However we are long into retirement age, brain memory and muscles are not what they were so starting out now on PA is all about the satisfaction in learning and the joy in performing, ...well, ….acceptably anyway.

The Mally book looks really good, we are definitely going to order it (post holiday). Thanks for the heads-up as the title would indeed have put us off. Nice people both; I once did an Irish Melodeon (diatonic) workshop with the helpful Mally at Witney, and got a little acquainted long ago with the astonishing Karen Tweed at Durham Adult Summer Schools (for Melodeon) when she refused to give me some dots before I had learned the tune by ear first …. clever lady ! (the tutor was Chris Parkinson !)

Thanks BobM for your interest and support, and sorry for banging on so much.

 

[BobM]

My Pleasure, the PA is a big subject..

 

[artidots]

Thanks to you BobM I have now bought both the Mighty Accordion book and the Karen Tweed / Mally 'Absolute Beginners' too. Shame you don't get a percentage eh.

Shame too about the title of the Karen Tweed book which does it a disservice really. It has excellent explanations of many things musical but for us the most useful feature is the selection of tunes we know well with the all-important addition of treble fingering which we badly need at this stage. A super little book. Amusingly when I scanned the collage of pictures on the cover to discover highlighted Accordion brands I found nearly all were carefully represented.

I can see why the Mighty Accordion book gets criticised but I can only agree with your own comments BobM in that it very much has it's place when you need it for some LH help …. as I recently did per above. Good to see it emphasises 4-3 style fingering which we adopted from the start after some heart searching. We felt it was worth the cost and it sits awaiting our next query about bass fingering and use. The Cd's are, well, good demonstrations I guess, just not the sort of thing to listen too for an hour or so's entertainment (I jest obviously).

Ah well, off for some practise….

 

[BobM]

Thanks for the feedback. For some people the KT book might be all they need for a few years, a great little book. The MA needs a companion book to put its' information into some form of context, maybe in the form of chord sequences that crop up a lot, and with titles that hint of the source song.