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Accordion design!!

Richard

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San Francisco California
Hello All, I’m so thankful for our Forum to exchange ideas and gain knowledge. And so I would like to ask a question that has bothered me for years and at 86 yrs I hope the wisdom of our membership can provide the answer. Here goes…I love my accordion, I have a Scandalli model ‘N’ from the early 1960’s with a beautiful tone that I searched for all my adult playing life. I pick it up and marvel at the sound of this exquisite instrument. BUT my question is, as beautiful as it is, why does it have to be so big and have so many treble and bass registers that I don’t and won’t ever use? What more do I need than Bassoon, bandoneon , accordion, organ, mussette, clarinet! And on the bass side, do I need 9 registers, some with similar sounding variations? And also why do we need a treble Palm Master switch that combines all the reeds? I never use it, it’s too harsh! And on the bass side, seems 3or 4 switches could do the job. A Master, (don’t know the names), a low anchor note with gentle chords for beautiful songs, and a couple of fun switches. Also,do we need all the 120/149 bass we we’ll never or seldom use? I also wonder how many of us realize that the bass is like a lost cousin that is not really heard as an equal partner with the treble! And what about the weight?? Would less plethora of registers and less bass buttons save in weight? In summary, why not build an “efficient” accordion with with basic registers that most of us can use, and maybe with the savings in manufacture, build our beautiful instruments cost wise with top notch reeds and producing rich sounding instruments like my Scandalli Model N! I don’t need amplification to get strong, mello tone! I realize that artists and competition players can use all the tools that are built in, but it seems to me that the vast majority of us just need a basic group of combinations that complimented with great reeds and build can produce a unique sound, that can put our accordion on a level all our own, recognized as a beautiful sounding instrument! Thanks all!
 
Hello All, I’m so thankful for our Forum to exchange ideas and gain knowledge. And so I would like to ask a question that has bothered me for years and at 86 yrs I hope the wisdom of our membership can provide the answer. Here goes…I love my accordion, I have a Scandalli model ‘N’ from the early 1960’s with a beautiful tone that I searched for all my adult playing life. I pick it up and marvel at the sound of this exquisite instrument. BUT my question is, as beautiful as it is, why does it have to be so big and have so many treble and bass registers that I don’t and won’t ever use? What more do I need than Bassoon, bandoneon , accordion, organ, mussette, clarinet! And on the bass side, do I need 9 registers, some with similar sounding variations? And also why do we need a treble Palm Master switch that combines all the reeds? I never use it, it’s too harsh! And on the bass side, seems 3or 4 switches could do the job. A Master, (don’t know the names), a low anchor note with gentle chords for beautiful songs, and a couple of fun switches. Also,do we need all the 120/149 bass we we’ll never or seldom use? I also wonder how many of us realize that the bass is like a lost cousin that is not really heard as an equal partner with the treble! And what about the weight?? Would less plethora of registers and less bass buttons save in weight? In summary, why not build an “efficient” accordion with with basic registers that most of us can use, and maybe with the savings in manufacture, build our beautiful instruments cost wise with top notch reeds and producing rich sounding instruments like my Scandalli Model N! I don’t need amplification to get strong, mello tone! I realize that artists and competition players can use all the tools that are built in, but it seems to me that the vast majority of us just need a basic group of combinations that complimented with great reeds and build can produce a unique sound, that can put our accordion on a level all our own, recognized as a beautiful sounding instrument! Thanks all!

A bit like a smartphone, computer, or any of the many other bits of electronic gear etc. which are entirely surplus to your actual needs.
The KISS principle is sometimes appropriately applied in these situations - Keep It Simple, Silly.
On the electronic gadgetry it is possible to disable the redundant functions, but in the matter of your beautiful accordion you can either sell it and buy something else more suitable, or keep it for when you might get to use all of its capabilities, buying a more suitable instrument for use in the meantime.
 
it seems to me that the vast majority of us just need a basic group of combinations that complimented with great reeds and build can produce a unique sound, that can put our accordion on a level all our own, recognized as a beautiful sounding instrument! Thanks all!
I agree: the majority of us (such as I myself) only need two bass and two treble (LM) reeds: no bass couplers and only an LM/M treble coupler.
The rest is expensive gingerbread!🙂
 
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The main issue I see is that some herbert is going to need the reed combination you haven't provided a switch for.

The Excelsior NY 'double O' got round that by providing a switch for each reed bank - 4 switches for 15 combinations + off.
The only problem with that is you may have to change all 4 switches to get what you want instead of pressing one.
I do know of one score that uses 3 different treble registers (M, MM, L) and there isn't much time to change register.

A way round this is to have 'programable' switches - so you have 3 or 4 treble switches and you set each to whatever combination you want before you start playing. Obviously fairly difficult to do mechanically, but trivial on a digital accordion.
 
Here we have the eternal debate again... "One size fits all" really means "One size fits nobody". By making "standard" configurations of some device (whether it's an accordion or a car or a TV set...) we inevitably end up with (and paying for) features we don't need (until we do).
Our accordion playing changes over time. The sheet music with compositions or arrangements we get also changes over time. We now often encounter register switches with very little time (so the 4 rocker switches of the old Excelsior no longer cut it) or with no time at all (so you really need chin switches to change register while continuing to play). We need the bassoon because some music uses really low notes and we need the piccolo because some music uses really high notes...
The current "standard" accordion with 4 (or 5) treble voices LMMH and 4 (or 5) bass voices gives you many sound options, and when you currently use only a few you may find yourself using almost all of them several years down the line...
Manufacturers are coming up with lightweight accordions that have just that. The main thing these accordions lack is physical robustness. (The thin wood is more easily cracked than the thick wood in the old Excelsior.) A little bit could still be saved to make an accordion lighter, like removing 24 bass buttons because 96 is really all you need. But we are close to how light we can go.
To some people who say that they really only use the M register in cassotto with such a wonderful clarinet sound I would say: learn to play the clarinet. The accordion gives you "a complete orchestra in a small box", but the only really good sound it has is the accordion sound. (in my opinion this is the opposite of a Roland: pretty decent sounds of all kinds of instruments but not so good accordion sound.)
Don't be upset your accordion has features you never use and question "why are they even there?". Someone else will use them, and you may end up using them in the future. My car can go faster than I would ever dare to drive. It also has safety features I hope will never spring into action as long as I have the car. My TV set has inputs and outputs I have never used. The remote has at least 3 times as many buttons than I ever use. It's all there because the car and the TV are "standard" and someone else will use these features. To make devices with just (and only) the features you specifically want would make them more expensive than just making a "standard" device.
 
A way round this is to have 'programable' switches - so you have 3 or 4 treble switches and you set each to whatever combination you want before you start playing.
Decades ago, my first car had a radio with programable stations (selected mechanically). All you had to do was press the switches.
This was very effective and robust and lasting. (It may have been a Phillips🤔)🙂
 
One benefit of all those switches/buttons we 'never' use is that a lot more accordions can be made in one design so it's probably cheaper.
 
Decades ago, my first car had a radio with programable stations (selected mechanically). All you had to do was press the switches.
This was very effective and robust and lasting. (It may have been a Phillips🤔)🙂
Since when do "Philips" and "robust and lasting" go together in one statement?

Luckily things are a bit better in accordions, although I have seen design (and implementation) choices in accordions that bring terms like stupid, ridiculous and certainly not long-lasting to mind.
 
Decades ago, my first car had a radio with programable stations (selected mechanically). All you had to do was press the switches.
This was very effective and robust and lasting. (It may have been a Phillips🤔)🙂
You had a radio??
My first car didn't even have a heater, but did have leather straps to open and shut the windows like in the steam train carriages
 
Since when do "Philips" and "robust and lasting" go together in one statement?
Well, you are from the Netherlands, so you get to see the appliances that fall apart before they manage to reach the border.
Luckily things are a bit better in accordions, although I have seen design (and implementation) choices in accordions that bring terms like stupid, ridiculous and certainly not long-lasting to mind.
"export quality" used to be a thing with accordion reeds as well. With the original poster complaining about his 9 bass registers, I wonder what in terms of "stupid and ridiculous" he'd think about my 168 ones.

What more do I need than Bassoon, bandoneon , accordion, organ, mussette, clarinet!
You might have enjoyed a Contello I resold: all it had was Bassoon, Clarinet, Piccolo, Master (LMH) and I think Organ (LH). I never needed Piccolo and would have preferred to have Bandonion (LM) and/or Oboe (MH), though. For a 3-reed instrument, 7 registers don't really add a lot of size/weight.

And that's an issue with some of the things you complain about: once you have the reed sets anyway, additional registers add very little weight. So do additional bass buttons (a 40-button instrument already needs full reed sets with 12 reed plates in each set). Now all of the registers you list don't use a piccolo reed, so that is a real saving, making for an LMM accordion (somewhat frequent) or LMMM (more frequent). If tremolo is important to you, MMM sounds fuller than MM, as does, by the way, MMH from the more versatile LMMH configuration.
And on the bass side, seems 3or 4 switches could do the job. A Master, (don’t know the names), a low anchor note with gentle chords for beautiful songs, and a couple of fun switches.
How many of my registers do I actually use? A very limited set, but a set that is tightly connected to the pieces I am playing and the kind of bass passages and chords they use. And there is no way that the accordion constructor would have known which ones they are.
To some people who say that they really only use the M register in cassotto with such a wonderful clarinet sound I would say: learn to play the clarinet. The accordion gives you "a complete orchestra in a small box", but the only really good sound it has is the accordion sound. (in my opinion this is the opposite of a Roland: pretty decent sounds of all kinds of instruments but not so good accordion sound.)
Gets me back to the Contello again: its "money register" was M (no cassotto but only leather valves and a very sweet sound). Loved that thing. Only reason I sold it was that it did not make sense for me to keep a piano accordion after going to button. Now on the downside, to balance such a single reed register on the right both in sound and weight when it is the main asset, you need a fairly dinky bass. And I have found that to be the main downside with accordions built for limited size/range/sound.

Make no mistake: 90% of the time I use my big accordion while engaging only a single chord reed. But it doesn't buzz the mechanics like the small instruments do, is at a nicer range, and is accompanied by a bass that is both low enough not to interfere significantly with the melody and to be a good match in size and character.

With regard to the number of registers one needs: my violin has one (more or less, with pizziccato and flageolet being rare exceptions). And my big LMMM accordion has nominally 7 on the treble side of which half make little sense. The rest needs to pull its weight, and does.

We need the bassoon because some music uses really low notes and we need the piccolo because some music uses really high notes...
My bassoon goes far lower than almost any piano accordion (Hohner Imperator VS does not count as normal in my book), and my clarinet and tremolo reeds go higher than the piccolo on a 41-key piano accordion. So cutting the piccolo reed bank does not come at a cost in range, and indeed if you want to cut through in the piccolo range, MMM does by far a more convincing job than H would at similar pitch. Of course, extending 3 reed sets (say) by one octave comes at a similar reed plate count as adding one 3-octave reed set. And there is the question of keyboard size: piano accordions are unwieldy enough with their standard ranges.

So to summarize, I can sort of nitpick around any particular choice, which makes my diatrabe end up at best slightly more differentiated than Paul's: building an instrument with a larger appeal will come at the cost of bulky and weighty options that may not all be necessary for all users. Limiting size will be taking choices that may disqualify the instrument with some customers while making it more attractive to others.

Custom-configured instruments exist but are not exactly cheap. With a shrinking market, producers have to counter by making more generic and less specialized instruments in order to have them sell in reasonable amounts of time.

According to the shop owner I got my instrument from, he had it sitting 15 years on his shelves and wanted to get rid of it. As a salesperson, you don't want to stock instruments appealing only to few people.
 
in pre-historic times (prior to the Excelsior rockers)
there were sometimes no shifts at all, or just one
to close or open the bassoon reeds, and nowhere
to put it so the Palm shift was born because it had
to be added to existing design

the market forced the changes, as well as the storied
Mr. Nunzio who legend has it was the first to come up
with the modern "shifts" concept and passed it on to his
long time supplier and close friend (Settimo Soprani)
who gave it a try..

the entire industry quickly "shifted" toward the new design
and the rest of the one upmanship for how many shifts can we
fit onto the front of an accordion or angels on the head of a pin
is now history
 
I think the trend of some Northern Italian builders like Stocco and ByMarco is to reduce how many treble registers they have to what they think are the most usable combinations.
 
OK, so Brandoni has a model with 25 (ouch!) treble shifts and the weight of an average boulder (double ouch!) and they’re not alone. But if you want flexibility, take a look at the specs of the Proxima Mia and pray that it actually gets into production and out to market.

Can the industry survive on added features (and weight) because ‘somebody wants them’?

While it’s true that digitals can add features with little or no increase in weight, many people will only use one or another subset of those features, and leave the rest to the demonstrators.

Acoustics can only add features with an increase in weight, or try to cut that increase by using lighter woods in their bodies.

There was a time when accordion sheet music had only two registration symbols. Somewhere in my collection I have those yellowing pages, and someday I hope to reproduce them here. Right now, I have a non-chambered acoustic LMMM with eleven switches and a master bar on the treble side. How many do I actually use? There are five sets of reeds in the left hand. That could easily support at least seven switches and the factory, probably in a cost-cutting move, only put in four. But again, how many do I actually use? The answer in both cases is two. I realize that others with the same configuration may use a different two, or thee, or four, etc.

If the industry actually picks up on this trend, they have a choice. They can make a bunch of instruments with what they perceive as one group’s simple choice, and another bunch of instruments with what they perceive as abother group’s choice, and so on. Or, they can rely entirely on custom orders. In the first case, they may be stuck with a whole bunch of unsold instruments because they didn’t guess right. In the second case, well, it would be a waiting game, during which they’d be making little to no.profit. Unlike the automotive industry, which conducts marketing surveys and must respond to government safety and environmental standards, the accordion industry, with a few exceptions, relies on traditional approaches to features and that tradition evolves, but evolves very slowly.

So, we, as consumers, must make do with what the industry produces and ignore those extras we don’t find ourselves using, or go for the lightweight, stripped-down feature-wise boxes being produced today, or, place custom orders, wait, wait some more, wait still more, and finally pay more than we would have for stripped-down boxes.
 
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We need the bassoon because some music uses really low notes and we need the piccolo because some music uses really high notes...
That's one advantage of monster range CBA instruments: the principal use of registers is different sounds. The piccolo reed can specialize on being a sound modification rather than a sound of its own (indeed, monster range CBAs may repeat the last octave of the piccolo because there is neither point nor availability for reed plates that high). I don't have a piccolo reed on my instrument and that is "only" resulting in a lack of sound color rather than range (and the low volume of high reeds makes the MMM registration in piccolo ranges more useful than a single reed could be).

The Morino Artiste VID has the same 62-note treble keyboard range as my instrument but in LMMH configuration, and indeed the piccolo reed wraps around there. I don't know whether the nominal successors Artiste VIN and VIS have this wraparound: their range has been reduced.

The 64-note range of a "proper" bayan sits quite lower, so I don't know what the wraparound situation is with their H reed.
 
Possibly what's needed is a hybrid mechanism:

Digital register switches that move the register sliders using solenoids or minature electic motors and screw threads.
I'm fairly sure such 'actuators' exist out there in the world.

You could then program the register switches to whatever combination of sliders you needed.

edit: Hmmm, I wonder if you could convert an Excelsior rocker ....
 
Possibly what's needed is a hybrid mechanism:

Digital register switches that move the register sliders using solenoids or minature electic motors and screw threads.
I'm fairly sure such 'actuators' exist out there in the world.

You could then program the register switches to whatever combination of sliders you needed.

edit: Hmmm, I wonder if you could convert an Excelsior rocker ....
Have a look at the latest developments from Beltuna... They may already have everything you asked for, and more!
You can play bass notes from the treble keyboard (but not vice versa because the treble keyboard is still mechanical), and you can program registers (using a tablet app) to select any combination of treble and bass reeds.
 
You will eventually want to see more options but not that much I think. It makes you look richer and more sophisticated. Also shows you are a better special guy if the viewer owns an accordion and advertise (suggests you) the higher expensive model in a way. I think in the means of weight/options optimization De Bra is right as always. Thats good to have a 4 reed blocked instrument. For example about 11 treble switches and a couple of bass switches. Which makes my Amica 4 /120 satisfies me. More than that makes very similar sounds. However, collectors looking for a special rare model will be interested with these. A conversation piece. Scandalli Super 6 is a legendary model I would like to buy though.

Palm switch makes you change the switch to master without changing the hand position leaving the keyboard. It is very convenient to change the switch without stopping the music in speedy pieces. Its always suggested, you start from lesser reed combinations and finish with a "Tutti" all reeds which is master, connected to palm switch.
 
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