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Inflammo
Guest
Hi, just received a gumtree purchase of what should be a lovely Piermaria but it has arrived with the 4 lower rows of reeds sunk into the instrument .....help, what has happened and what can I do?
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maugein96
Guest
Wow!
Have the reed blocks maybe dislodged themselves in transit, and moved out of position?
Can you maybe try and post a photo of how things are?
There are a good few people on here who could probably identify the problem straight away from a photo.
Take a photo with your phone and save it to the device you log into the forum with. Then log in here, and select "Full editor and preview" in the caption box.
Click attachments, then add files, and you'll get an option to insert attachments (your photo(s)) into your post. You may have to reduce the size of the images if prompted "file too large".
Then we should all be able to see what has happened.
It sounds as though the box has received a very heavy knock, but it might not be as bad as it looks.
Cheers,
John W
Have the reed blocks maybe dislodged themselves in transit, and moved out of position?
Can you maybe try and post a photo of how things are?
There are a good few people on here who could probably identify the problem straight away from a photo.
Take a photo with your phone and save it to the device you log into the forum with. Then log in here, and select "Full editor and preview" in the caption box.
Click attachments, then add files, and you'll get an option to insert attachments (your photo(s)) into your post. You may have to reduce the size of the images if prompted "file too large".
Then we should all be able to see what has happened.
It sounds as though the box has received a very heavy knock, but it might not be as bad as it looks.
Cheers,
John W
Inflammo post_id=61636 time=1533310087 user_id=3001 said:
Ouch, I feel your pain...
What this means is that the accordion received a serious bump in an unfortunate direction. I have seen this happen even when the accordion was in a backpack, laying on its back in the boot of a car and the car went over a speed bump too fast.
To fix this you have to work very carefully, moving button after button back in position so it goes through its hole. In any case, *do not bend anything*. This type of accident tends to not bend anything so there is nothing to bend back!
maugein96 post_id=61639 time=1533312060 user_id=607 said:
There is a plate in between the reed blocks on the bellow side and the bass mechanics on the other side.
No matter how badly the reed blocks may be dislodged, that has no influence on the bass mechanics and vice versa.
Fixing the mechanics is a delicate and time consuming puzzle, but in all likelihood there is no permanent damage and nothing is really bent either.
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maugein96
Guest
Paul,
Not sure if we are talking about four rows of bass "reeds" or four rows of bass buttons? OP has specified "reeds" right enough.
Not sure if we are talking about four rows of bass "reeds" or four rows of bass buttons? OP has specified "reeds" right enough.
maugein96 post_id=61643 time=1533314996 user_id=607 said:
With rows of reeds I assumed the OP means rows of bass buttons. This is the most common problem and the most noticeable when an instrument is first inspected after transport.
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maugein96
Guest
debra post_id=61644 time=1533319366 user_id=605 said:
I initially considered it must be buttons but when I re-read the post she did say reeds.
I assume a Piermaria PA is likely to have push in peg buttons, and not stepped mushroom ones. Ive had this happen twice with mushroom buttons and had to dismantle the whole bass side and put it back together again.
I used cardboard strips and pushed the rods through them so that I could remember what order they were in. Took me about 5 hours, maybe 4 the second time. In my cases two rods were actually bent very slightly out of true and I had to straighten them both out the second time. Youll know better than I do that it is very easy to overbend the rods.
What a nightmare when she would be dying to try the box out instead of looking for small screwdrivers to take it to bits!
Hey Paul,
I'm glad this subject came up so's I didn't have to raise it again. Having to acquire my boxes off ebay and such, shipping is a major hazard in my life. My recently received Excelsior arrived in a crushed box, with a dented grille and grille support. I'm currently in limbo with FedEx on the damage claim. Luckly, there wasn't any sound box or bellows damage. A new grille is $550 US plus $300 US VAT/Dutys and $650 US round trip shipping (need to return the grille & the treble side to Italy). Yikes!
I have inspected all 4 of my accordions, and inside, there is a "bump strip" on all of my boxes (Beltuna, Excelsior, Paolo Soprani and Pigini), that both absorbs piston impact and prevents the button from sinking far enough to get under the button board. I can push on a button with a pencil tip and the button will not depress far enough to slip into/under the hole. This seems to be an intelligent move to me and I'm surprised all boxes don't feature such a layout.
What is your experience on this detail? Can a box constructed in this manner still suffer the dreaded "button drop"? When buying a box that will be shipped, could I request the seller do the "pencil test" described above, in order to determine weather or not cardboard bass blockers will be necessary? Do you know of brands/manufacturers that are either susceptible to, and/or immune to "bass button drop"?
Thanks, Paul, I'm sure your (and others with input) knowledge here will be useful for all.
Press on...
Waldo
I'm glad this subject came up so's I didn't have to raise it again. Having to acquire my boxes off ebay and such, shipping is a major hazard in my life. My recently received Excelsior arrived in a crushed box, with a dented grille and grille support. I'm currently in limbo with FedEx on the damage claim. Luckly, there wasn't any sound box or bellows damage. A new grille is $550 US plus $300 US VAT/Dutys and $650 US round trip shipping (need to return the grille & the treble side to Italy). Yikes!
I have inspected all 4 of my accordions, and inside, there is a "bump strip" on all of my boxes (Beltuna, Excelsior, Paolo Soprani and Pigini), that both absorbs piston impact and prevents the button from sinking far enough to get under the button board. I can push on a button with a pencil tip and the button will not depress far enough to slip into/under the hole. This seems to be an intelligent move to me and I'm surprised all boxes don't feature such a layout.
What is your experience on this detail? Can a box constructed in this manner still suffer the dreaded "button drop"? When buying a box that will be shipped, could I request the seller do the "pencil test" described above, in order to determine weather or not cardboard bass blockers will be necessary? Do you know of brands/manufacturers that are either susceptible to, and/or immune to "bass button drop"?
Thanks, Paul, I'm sure your (and others with input) knowledge here will be useful for all.
Press on...
Waldo
Sadly, there are about as many different bass mechanisms as accordion models (well, not quite but close). At the repair course (in April) we worked on about 15 accordions and so I saw 15 different bass mechanisms. There are common elements but for instance predicting whether the bass mechanism has a "bump strip" that prevents the buttons from going in too far is near impossible. And even with a bump strip the buttons may be able to move "just too far" in case of an accident...
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maugein96
Guest
Waldo,
On French spec accordions made in France or Italy the stepped mushroom buttons cannot drop below the surface of the keyboard, as they are screwed into place same as the bigger treble buttons.
However, they can "drop" down if any part of the bass mechanism moves out of place, and as far as I know there is no reliable cure for that. At one time Cavagnolo used a fairly soft metal and the bass button control rods were prone to bending slightly over time with disastrous results.
I have no experience of "peg" bass buttons at all, as none of my accordions has them. All of my boxes have had bumps and bangs at various times, and apart from the old Cavagnolo I now don't have, I've never had any problems.
On French spec accordions made in France or Italy the stepped mushroom buttons cannot drop below the surface of the keyboard, as they are screwed into place same as the bigger treble buttons.
However, they can "drop" down if any part of the bass mechanism moves out of place, and as far as I know there is no reliable cure for that. At one time Cavagnolo used a fairly soft metal and the bass button control rods were prone to bending slightly over time with disastrous results.
I have no experience of "peg" bass buttons at all, as none of my accordions has them. All of my boxes have had bumps and bangs at various times, and apart from the old Cavagnolo I now don't have, I've never had any problems.
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maugein96
Guest
Inflammo post_id=61636 time=1533310087 user_id=3001 said:
Hello again,
I now guess that you have four whole rows of bass buttons stuck down. The only cure is to remove the cover of the bass keyboard and have a look inside.
If you choose to do that yourself, before you do or move anything it is vital to try and work out where any loose bits have come from, as theyll have to be reassembled correctly. I believe you have either a 72 or 96 bass instrument and that will make the task slightly easier than if it was a 120 bass.
You need to work out how to reconstruct whatever parts of the mechanism have moved out of place, and the clue is to look at the control rods which are still in situ and working properly. Above all, do not panic. It is probably the case that nothing is actually broken, and your bass mechanism just requires re-assembly.
I dont know anything at all about the peg type buttons your accordion must have, but then I never knew anything about my French made accordions when it happened to me.
In the event that you have to remove any of the bass mechanism to get to the offending displaced parts, you need to make absolutely sure you put the same parts back where they came from. If necessary get a strip of cardboard and push any rods you take out through it so that they are lying in the same order you took them out. If you dont do that it will literally be like your worst nightmare 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle. I know, as the first time I did it I got two round the wrong way and had to go through the whole process again. My limited experience of maintaining aircraft certainly helped me work everything out, but Im not the worlds handiest man.
As far as I can ascertain, the instrument has most likely been damaged by the courier, but Ive noted that very few Gumtree sellers offer insurance if the courier option is selected.
Good luck with it whatever happens. Remember the accordion is probably not broken, and just requires some re-assembly. It can be done by anybody with basic skills (me) but it wont be a 10 minute job.
maugein96 post_id=61654 time=1533332336 user_id=607 said:
The OP is very lucky when it is 72 or 96 bass indeed.
The one time I needed to do this was on a 120 bass with convertor... Indeed not a 10 minute job. I believe I needed about 20 minutes... Of course when the OP sees a bass mechanism for the first time it will take considerably longer!
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Inflammo
Guest
Thanks all for your helpful responses- I'll be honest, when I posted I honestly believed the box had been subject to irreparable damage (at least in the hands of an amateur). YouTube and a screwdriver coupled with a handy husband and some patience have paid off! He removed the bass cover and very gently managed to tease the offending levers back into place so the bass is all good now. There's still a minor problem with one treble note on musette coupler which is fine when the bellows are being pulled but is making a nasty noise on compression- any suggestions?
In this instance as a gumtree purchase between us the seller and I had covered the additional cost of insurance through DPD and they have been informed that there has been potential damage- in any instance I will take the instrument for a service and check over. Meanwhile it gets a first outing on day 1 of the national Eisteddford in Cardiff tomorrow promoting Welsh folk music...happy days
In this instance as a gumtree purchase between us the seller and I had covered the additional cost of insurance through DPD and they have been informed that there has been potential damage- in any instance I will take the instrument for a service and check over. Meanwhile it gets a first outing on day 1 of the national Eisteddford in Cardiff tomorrow promoting Welsh folk music...happy days
M
maugein96
Guest
debra post_id=61655 time=1533333939 user_id=605 said:
Paul,
As far as I can remember, I decided to take the whole lot out and ressemble it in a mixture of panic, pique, and pure rage! With those mushroom buttons a lot of the time was spent unscrewing them and putting them all back on again. The box was a 120 bass Cavagnolo Bal Musette model. If I had the temperament of my English neighbours I may have Kept Calm, but I had just shelled out over a weeks wages to have one button fixed and discovered it had two buttons stuck down when I got it back. My first attempt at a home fix failed and I had to do the whole thing again. My fingertips were like sun dried tomatoes, and I wish Id had one of those button tools at the time.
Im glad I never knew it was only a 20 minute job back then or I think Id have driven to the repairers workshop in England and burned it down. Damaged in transit was all I was offered. From memory his repair cost me about £200 around 1991, and the Scottish dealer who looked at it and sent it south for the repair obviously also made a kill on the deal.
Hope the OP knows somebody who can help her to fix it.
M
maugein96
Guest
Inflammo post_id=61656 time=1533336672 user_id=3001 said:Thanks all for your helpful responses- Ill be honest, when I posted I honestly believed the box had been subject to irreparable damage (at least in the hands of an amateur). YouTube and a screwdriver coupled with a handy husband and some patience have paid off! He removed the bass cover and very gently managed to tease the offending levers back into place so the bass is all good now. Theres still a minor problem with one treble note on musette coupler which is fine when the bellows are being pulled but is making a nasty noise on compression- any suggestions?
In this instance as a gumtree purchase between us the seller and I had covered the additional cost of insurance through DPD and they have been informed that there has been potential damage- in any instance I will take the instrument for a service and check over. Meanwhile it gets a first outing on day 1 of the national Eisteddford in Cardiff tomorrow promoting Welsh folk music...happy days
Glad it has all worked out without having to get the old Meccano manual out.
The reed may just have a small piece of debris stuck in it. Try and give it a really good shove two or three times on compression and see if it sorts itself out. If not you could try taking the reed block out and blowing through the offending reed, but Id wait until you get back from Cardiff before you try that. If it is a three voice musette you need to know which reed is off, as there are three banks of M or clarinet reeds. If your instrument has bassoon reeds in it there may only be two banks of clarinet reeds. That being the case it is one of the sharp tuned M reeds which is causing the problem. Once you find out which reed block its in take it out and have a look at it. Hopefully a few sharp blasts on it with the bellows will cure it and save you the bother. Accordions are very problematic at times. People will tell you not to blow into the reeds in case you leave any moisture on the reed, but when your nearest repairer is a long way away it might be worth a try.
Could be the reed is damaged or the leather valve covering it needs replaced. Not a really big job, but annoying just the same. Complete service on a box like yours could cost anything between £300 and £600, depending on whether a full re-tune is required, so get a quote first.
DPD = Dunt it, Poke it, and Dent it. Good luck with them!
Hope you enjoy the Eisteddford, even if I havent a clue what that is.
george garside
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on the basis that prevention is better than cure I always 'lock' the base when sending a box by courier and include instructions to the buyer as to how to unlock . Its very easy to do, just remove the bass end plate ( where the bass strap is) and insert strips of cardboard under the bass mechanism until there is enough to stop the bass buttons being pressed. re attach the bass plate . The buyer of repairer simply reverses the procedure.
george
george
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maugein96
Guest
Hi George,
I read about bass "locking" on a French website a long time ago, but was never able to translate exactly what they meant. I knew it involved inserting cardboard somewhere, but I think I've got the picture now.
With French spec boxes you need to unscrew all those mushroom bass buttons before you can get the bass keyboard cover off, and it is a bugger of a job, even if there's not much needing attention inside.
Thanks for explaining the procedure.
I read about bass "locking" on a French website a long time ago, but was never able to translate exactly what they meant. I knew it involved inserting cardboard somewhere, but I think I've got the picture now.
With French spec boxes you need to unscrew all those mushroom bass buttons before you can get the bass keyboard cover off, and it is a bugger of a job, even if there's not much needing attention inside.
Thanks for explaining the procedure.
george garside
Prolific poster
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not the bass keyboard cover the bass end back plate where your wrist is under the bass strap and the air button is. Usually just 4 or 6 small screws to release it and bass buttons not touched.
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maugein96
Guest
george garside post_id=61666 time=1533403449 user_id=118 said:
Sorry George,
I confused the issue. I knew you were talking about the bass end plate, but went off on a tangent as usual.
I made mention of the bass keyboard cover merely to draw attention to the fact that with mushroom type bass buttons, these all need to be unscrewed before you can take the bass keyboard cover off. With peg type buttons you just undo the screws and lift the cover off.
The article I read on the French internet recommended packing the bass mechanism with cardboard, as you have described, to avoid any of the bass buttons dropping in transit. It drew attention to the long drawn out process involved with mushroom bass buttons, compared with the peg type buttons fitted to (most) Italian boxes. My schoolboy French wasnt up to the job of translating the article, but youve now explained the procedure.
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