Hello! I am about to purchase my first chromatic B accordion. I am currently seriously considering the Scandalli Air Junior (37 keys). Less than 20 lbs is important to me, so my conundrum is which is more important: having the piccolo voice on an LMMH or a model with LMM but with 41+keys? I don’t PLAN on playing a lot of classical or jazz, but I am still discovering what I like to play.
37 keys on LMMH or 41+keys on LMM
- Thread starter Iris
- Start date
Dingo40
Been here for ages!
Hi Iris and welcome!
Running out of keys when playing is a complication.
Personally, I'd take the 41 keys.
Running out of keys when playing is a complication.
Personally, I'd take the 41 keys.
Thank you for your reply!Hi Iris and welcome!
Running out of keys when playing is a complication.
Personally, I'd take the 41 keys.
I have another question if you wouldn’t mind..my teacher is suggesting a converter accordion. In your experience, is it worth having that feature? It seems a feature more geared towards classical music?
Welcome Iris! I think it really depends on what you want to play, and how that relates to the size and weight of the accordion. If you are entertaining people with traditional/folk, the lighter accordion may be fine. The other consideration is the internal condition (including whether it’s in tune, and what kind of musette you want.) is one accordion in better shape than the other? Or are you buying new?
So, what defines your desired repertoire? A converter is good if you desire/need free bass. Again, depends on what you want to play.
If you don’t know, it won’t matter. Just get AN accordion and start playing. Your perfect configuration will follow your repertoire.
Good luck!!
So, what defines your desired repertoire? A converter is good if you desire/need free bass. Again, depends on what you want to play.
If you don’t know, it won’t matter. Just get AN accordion and start playing. Your perfect configuration will follow your repertoire.
Good luck!!
The junior Scandalli is new. My problem is that the accordion store I live near (liberty bellows) only has one B chromatic in stock that im interested in (others are too heavy for me). so if I want more than 37 keys and/or a converter I’ll have to special order that, which to me just is riskier without seeing/playing first. I am still discovering my preferred genres but currently playing waltzes/polka/folk. I don’t foresee myself playing a whole lot of classical? But who knows? I am currently taking lessons on a PA, so another option is to buy a cheaper $1000 model and trade up the future when I know more specifically what I want. My online teacher is recommending fisitalia 46.24 or 40.22, but again..I don’t love the idea of buying without seeing in person first. Decisions!!
Ventura
Been here for ages!
as Tom said, your repertoire will and should dictate
the type of accordion best for you
specifically regarding convertor, please bear in mind
teachers oftentimes in this business have divided loyalties,
and some will advise students to do what is actually best for
the TEACHER or for the sales of the business they are aligned with..
convertor accordions are a specialized tool and best for
a specific purpose.. stradella accordions are best if you
just play popular music because learning and understanding
commonalities in patterns of songs unlocks the superpower
of the accordion.. which is
once you memorize the motion on the left hand chord pattern
for any song, it is childs play to then move your left hand to
a different starting position, play the pattern, and let your
ear and right hand play the song in a new key
that's right.. once you understand that this simple shift
is the secret to playing songs in any key then you find
how putting your left hand on autopilot becomes
second nature.. then your brain can focus on the melody,
on your complex chords and improvisation,,
it is so cool to spice up a simple popular song,
whether pop or ethnic, simply by moving up through the
keys as you gradually increase the intensity of the performance
it is also true that a simple stradella accordion sounds different
than a convertor accordion on the left hand because the positioning
and selection of reeds and shifts and combinations in the ranks
are to different ultimate purpose, and therefore engineered that way..
so while the mechanical shift on the convertor side can slide
you between solo voce and stradella, it is a compromise in tonality..
do you like the OOMPH you can call up at will with a stradella ?
or is it more fulfilling to extend passages from the left to the right
or run solo left hand runs beyond an octave ?
regarding the piccolo voice, for many players it is irrelevant, but
if you like playing with power, if you like to rock out,
if you like a powerful straight forward integrated full sound,
that Piccolo is the hero behind the tone.. those tiny reeds start
immediately and poke the big sluggish reeds to wake up NOW
and even if you can barely hear those high frequencies, they
still have a role in shaping the overall sound as well as the projection..
if you are still figuring things out.. still exploring.. then i advise
holding off on any major purchase/investment until you have
a clearer understanding of the direction your personal path
settles into.. having said that, if you have the excess disposable
income to afford a few purchase mistakes, it does help to spend
time with a lot of different accordions
good luck and have fun !
the type of accordion best for you
specifically regarding convertor, please bear in mind
teachers oftentimes in this business have divided loyalties,
and some will advise students to do what is actually best for
the TEACHER or for the sales of the business they are aligned with..
convertor accordions are a specialized tool and best for
a specific purpose.. stradella accordions are best if you
just play popular music because learning and understanding
commonalities in patterns of songs unlocks the superpower
of the accordion.. which is
once you memorize the motion on the left hand chord pattern
for any song, it is childs play to then move your left hand to
a different starting position, play the pattern, and let your
ear and right hand play the song in a new key
that's right.. once you understand that this simple shift
is the secret to playing songs in any key then you find
how putting your left hand on autopilot becomes
second nature.. then your brain can focus on the melody,
on your complex chords and improvisation,,
it is so cool to spice up a simple popular song,
whether pop or ethnic, simply by moving up through the
keys as you gradually increase the intensity of the performance
it is also true that a simple stradella accordion sounds different
than a convertor accordion on the left hand because the positioning
and selection of reeds and shifts and combinations in the ranks
are to different ultimate purpose, and therefore engineered that way..
so while the mechanical shift on the convertor side can slide
you between solo voce and stradella, it is a compromise in tonality..
do you like the OOMPH you can call up at will with a stradella ?
or is it more fulfilling to extend passages from the left to the right
or run solo left hand runs beyond an octave ?
regarding the piccolo voice, for many players it is irrelevant, but
if you like playing with power, if you like to rock out,
if you like a powerful straight forward integrated full sound,
that Piccolo is the hero behind the tone.. those tiny reeds start
immediately and poke the big sluggish reeds to wake up NOW
and even if you can barely hear those high frequencies, they
still have a role in shaping the overall sound as well as the projection..
if you are still figuring things out.. still exploring.. then i advise
holding off on any major purchase/investment until you have
a clearer understanding of the direction your personal path
settles into.. having said that, if you have the excess disposable
income to afford a few purchase mistakes, it does help to spend
time with a lot of different accordions
good luck and have fun !
Yeah, hopefully you can try before you buy. 37 keys is generally considered plenty for waltz/polka/folk, which is what I play. My stroller is LMM 34 keys and it’s plenty. But I also have a full size 41/120. Many people follow this path - full size for tone, stroller for weight. Have you considered a Roland/Fisa? Has eveything you need, including free bass, and bonus - has a volume knob for in house playing.
Welcome to the forum @Iris ! As others have said, the right accordion will depend on what sort of music you play. I mostly play a 26 treble key instrument and I can play everything I need. But then I just play folk tunes. Similar with the piccolo voice - for my acoustic accordion I chose LMMM because I love the musette sound, and it works well for what I play. But for others my accordions would be wholly unsuitable!
There are accordions constructed specifically to be lightweight. The Victoria Piuma is a nice example. It has 41 notes, LMMH with double cassotto, but it saves weight by using a 4 voice bass, which for all intents and purposes is really enough. The Piuma comes in at 9.4kg. It has really nice Victoria sound, just like the heavier ones. So really, to go lightweight you do not need to give up notes or cassotto!
Just so.
And think of the weight you'll save in regards to your wallet.
Try decent used Plain Jane 41 120 LMMH's and some 30-odd models. If you accept less than stellar tuning you can get by quite reasonably and then know what you're doing when you go for the big money gusto.
As with cars, "Buy dear sell cheap", or at least with a fair amount of aggravation.
A banger in decent shape is easy to buy and easy to unload after you've assessed its fit to your wants.
Same same with the cassotto aspect.
If going light is a must then the older "decent used Plain Jane 41 120 LMMH's" are not acceptable because too heavy.
When you really want a niche product there is a hefty price tag involved.
It's not really the "buy dear sell cheap" problem but the "law of diminishing returns". When you want to get just a bit "better" (in this case "lighter") you have to pay a lot more.
Sorry, but I'm afraid tthat "a banger in decent shape" will not satisfy the weight requirement.
The banger in working condition is not the long term solution. The revered steamer trunk special 41/13 4/5 will surely be a heavywieght in most cases at any reasonable "take a flyer on it" price.
It is, however a reasonable plan for someone who really has no firm concept as to what they look for in the mix of voices, key range, and tone characteristics.
Starting out with
might not be a good first step.
There are a lot of decently priced LMM LMH fairly light boxes out there to work with on a trial basis. Once preferred genre of music and desired characteristics of tone and range are established the big money featherwieght models can be perused with some confidence.
If Liberty Bellows is the starting point they will be in decent working order and there is a pretty fair trade in policy allowing for experimentation with some cash involved- but not huge amounts and without winding up with a white elephant in residence.
In the end, when the desired type is ascertained, you do indeed pay for light weight.
No well intentioned answers on a chat forum will sub for a bit of playing experience. With no knowledge of the OP and with absolutely no "shade" intended it seems likely based upon his inquiry that they have limited experience with the instrument. There are real differences well beyond the cosmetic in the various options.
Last edited:
Dingo40
Been here for ages!
Read this thread!
Tap on here:
I am sure there are as many opinions as forum members, but having realised my Roland can do free bass, I'm thinking to try free bass.
Mostly I play folk tunes, and Stradella works great for those. But at Christmas I have a couple of carol singing gigs where free bass may be better - last year I played bass lines on the root and third bass rows as I wasn't skilled enough to do the chords.
Anyway, any suggestions as to which of these is more common, more suited to a beginner, more suited to traditional church music?
Mostly I play folk tunes, and Stradella works great for those. But at Christmas I have a couple of carol singing gigs where free bass may be better - last year I played bass lines on the root and third bass rows as I wasn't skilled enough to do the chords.
Anyway, any suggestions as to which of these is more common, more suited to a beginner, more suited to traditional church music?
Last edited:
Siegmund
Well-known member
Very much more geared toward classical music, especially in the US, where 'beginner' converters are rarely seen. I'm sure you've already noticed that adding a converter will add a few thousand dollars to the price, as well as a little bit of extra weight to the bass side. From what you've posted in this thread, I'd be surprised if you wanted one.
There are CBAs with MM or LMM voicing with more than 41 notes that come in under 20 pounds, if you choose to not go with four voices. Here again a classical-inclined person would probably be interested in the LMMH and a drier M+ reed where a folk/polka person will be less eager for the H reed and possibly more eager for more tremolo.
If you are looking at buying new, Liberty Bellows is not the only place in the world with instruments in stock and those of us on the other side of the country will do video demos for you if desired
In fact, around here accordions show up free, or almost free on Marketplace. Getting “something” to start with makes a lot of sense. Who knows whether a beginner will actually continue. I would never recommend a $2000 accordion for a beginner, unless they are very well heeled which most of the people I run into are not.
Need more info. How long have you been playing and what do you currently like to play? Do you have an accordion now and if yes, what kind is it?
Although not exclusive to classical music, converter instruments are more of a must have if you are planning to go that direction. Have you discussed with your instructor why they would make such a suggestion? If that's a direction that they want to take you and it's not to your liking, it would be a waste of time, effort and money.
Best advice here. Never spend thousands on something that is made to take you a direction that you will never go.
Last edited:
Alan Sharkis
Prolific poster
Jerry, I would have asked those same questions. A teacher who recommends a converter to an advanced, or perhaps an upper intermediate student is making a legitimate recommendation. A teacher who recommends a converter to a beginner either doesn’t know what he/she is talking about or is looking for a kickback from a dealer who sells converter accordions. So, it’s important for any student seeking advice about this situation to give us some background.
There is a third option. You see in Europe and Asia, there are students that are beginner accordionists that start with Free Bass accordions early, way before even intermediate levels. This is why there are smaller accordions with Free Bass. The existence of beginner level Free Bass books from many publications also support the fact that there is/was a need.
Ellegard, Hohner, Giuliette, Zero Sette, Pigini and others all made "less than top of the line professional level" accordions with Free Bass capabilities in all sizes... maybe this teacher sees something in Iris that Iris doesn't see yet?
Yeah, I am reaching, but it is possible.
Last edited:
There is a third option. You see in Europe and Asia, there are students that are beginner accordionists that start with Free Bass accordions early, way before even intermediate levels. This is why there are smaller accordions with Free Bass. The existence of beginner level Free Bass books from many publications also support the fact that there is/was a need.
Ellegard, Hohner, Giuliette, Zero Sette, Pigini and others all made "less than top of the line professional level" accordions with Free Bass capabilities in all sizes... maybe this teacher sees something in Iris that Iris doesn't see yet?
Yeah, I am reaching, but it is possible.
So much depends on the innate talents and predelictions of the student - together with the capability of the instructor to recognise them.
So much talent has been destroyed by formulaic approaches to teaching; ones which abide by strict linear learning and traditional, archaic psychology.
Many students learn more rapidly by playing around than by playing to unbending method and discipline.
Likewise, all human minds are different and develop, not by measurable, age based stages, but in bursts of activity unevenly and spasmodically occurring at often unexpected times in their lives.
So many great minds have made many of their achievements despite their education.
