Baffling question

[Dingo40]

Still, there should be no problem to fit in with fiddles, flutes, guitars and mandolins... They are loud enough and every accordion can play softly enough to mix with these instruments.

If you ever attended some of the pub folk sessions hereabouts (in the 1980s) you'd have been very lucky to even hear your own accordion at all, no matter how loudly you played it: you'd be drowned out by the 30 or 40 other instrumentalists (guitars, fiddles, pipes, DBAs, spoons, mandolins, banjo-mandolins, banjos, bodrans, going simultaneously and full pelt!
It used to remind me of trying to catch a wave at a popular break every man or woman for him/herself !
There was just the quick and the dead.
Essentially, you had to know your stuff well enough to play it fluently without any aural feedback!
The moment you hit the first note, the entire mob jumped in. Quite unnerving!
It's amazing how several score patrons crowding a room soaks up/muffles any sound coming out of a piano accordion. This is home territory for a DBA!

 

[dak]

Some manufacturers are better than others.

It's not just manufacturers but also the designers and craftsmen. Also the customers. When they pay the highest prices, they want the best hand-made reeds everywhere. Which sets you up for the bass overpowering the treble. I have a one-of-a-kind instrument (an old custom-made Morino construction) and what impressed a professional player most about it was not the intricate bass mechanism (which offers 168 different registrations for the standard bass) but how well it balanced out tonally over a large range of left/right registrations one would usually consider incompatible.

The same player said that this was a feature he missed after selling an old Jupiter bayan (where the mechanics were increasingly falling apart) that had just 4 bass reeds and was both poignant and transparent in play in a manner that the (quite top-of-the-line, including from Jupiter) newer instruments he bought failed to provide.

And indeed, when I test-played high end instruments, the one thing routinely irrking me tended to be my inability to find registrations in the left hand that would satisfyingly complement single-reed registrations in the right hand when playing held bass notes.

And I think part of the equation is that manufacturers have shifted their focus from building the best instruments to assembling the best components, without considering their role in the result. And of course, that in turn influences playing styles and literature, making accordions get stuck in a rut of specific styles of music and its execution.

 

[JerryPH]

What does it mean "voicing" on accordion?. I know what it means on a piano, but of course on this case it is a completely different thing

Very basically... it is something that is VERY challenging, becuase if a mistake is made there is zero change of going back. You size the sides of the reed tongue so that minimal air get's it vibrating to it's tone faster. The issue is that if it's done too much or improperly, the sound can break up faster at louder volumes.

Paul mentioned Golas... normally different notes start to vibrate at different speeds. The deeper the sound, the more air it takes to start (for example). On my Gola no matter what note I play, left or right hand, deepest to highest, in whatever register, EVERY note starts and ends with the same amount of air at the same time no matter how soft or loud I play. This is something that no other accordion I have ever played does as well.

This becomes glaringly obvious when I try to play the same way (but cannot of course) on the little student FB36 (for example), where it takes way longer amount of time to get the deepest notes to start vs the higher notes. This then causes me to need to play a bit louder so that they respond quicker in some cases.

 

[Monty [IIIII]]

Luciano offers a sordino on many models, you might write to him
and ask if he could send the shutters and switching stuff to you
to be installed locally

there are many ways to absorb sound but some will also alter the
tone by killing a lot of the higher frequencies, so adding thick felt
in irregular shapes inside the bass chamber as well as felting
the bassplate, and then restricting the exit holes from the bass section,
is best done incrementally

Thanks, Ventura, this information gets to the root of my question. Apparently someone has already addressed a technical fix to the issue of dampening or muting the bass side of the accordion. This saves me the age old challenge of "reinventing the wheel". Listening to a muted trumpet, one can appreciate how this type of fix might change the timbre and tone qualities of the accordion bass. Experimentation and caution seems prudent.

I'm not familiar with the name Luciano or the term "sordino". Perhaps you could elaborate a little. I know a local technician who could do the work if it was beyond my skill level. It might be easier to modify my current accordion than search for a new one with the properties I desire....though for many years after reading one of your earlier posts, I have wanted to go to Italy and find my ideal instrument right at the source.

 

[debra]

Very basically... it is something that is VERY challenging, becuase if a mistake is made there is zero change of going back. You size the sides of the reed tongue so that minimal air get's it vibrating to it's tone faster. The issue is that if it's done too much or improperly, the sound can break up faster at louder volumes.

Paul mentioned Golas... normally different notes start to vibrate at different speeds. The deeper the sound, the more air it takes to start (for example). On my Gola no matter what note I play, left or right hand, deepest to highest, in whatever register, EVERY note starts and ends with the same amount of air at the same time no matter how soft or loud I play. This is something that no other accordion I have ever played does as well.

This becomes glaringly obvious when I try to play the same way (but cannot of course) on the little student FB36 (for example), where it takes way longer amount of time to get the deepest notes to start vs the higher notes. This then causes me to need to play a bit louder so that they respond quicker in some cases.

Really good reeds have a very narrow gap between the sides of the reed tongue and the hole in the reed plate (the reed goes through). You know your reeds are good when they stop playing when the temperature drops below say 5 degrees centigrade (where lesser reeds still play when it's below zero degrees. The aluminium reed plate shrinks more when the temperature drops than the steel reed. That causes the reed to no longer fit through the hole in the reed plate.
But voicing is mostly about something else: the gap between the tip of the reed and the reed plate. If the reed tip sits too high the reed will produce a lot of volume but has trouble starting with little air pressure. If the reed tip sits too low the reed will start fast but will choke on high (starting) pressure, and the sound the reed produces is weaker. The difficulty is adjusting the gap so the reed still starts in pianissimo yet does not choke on a sforzando.
Every time I get an accordion in for tuning it has voicing issues (the owner has not noticed). With some notes when you play the LM register, or LH or MH or MM the two reeds that are supposed to start simultaneously do not. One starts a little bit later than the other. That's difficult to fix, but unlike what many many accordion players think, it is not impossible and defines the difference between a decent tuner and a really good tuner. It is most difficult to fix (and sometimes impossible) with high piccolo reeds (say between C7 and C#8). It is not extremely difficult with new reeds but it can be impossible with reeds that have been abused by tuners before the really good tuner gets to work on the accordion. I keep spare new piccolo reeds at hand to replace reeds that have been butchered beyond repair.

 

[dak]

Every time I get an accordion in for tuning it has voicing issues (the owner has not noticed). With some notes when you play the LM register, or LH or MH or MM the two reeds that are supposed to start simultaneously do not. One starts a little bit later than the other.

Not all inequalities are equal. As long as the reeds start dal niente (from nothing) rather than with, well, a start, it is even musically useful if the higher reeds bloom later than the lower reeds: that gives a crescendo punch and the tone pliability. What mustn't happen is that the higher of a reed combination comes in first: that would confuse the octaves. This provides a challenge in voicing the lower L reeds as their response needs to be at least on par with the corresponding M reeds.

 

[Ventura]

I'm not familiar with the name Luciano or the term "sordino". Perhaps you could elaborate a little.

oh, sorry,

you were mainly concerned about the bass power, but also mentioned
the overall power of the sound being too much

a Sordino is a 2 position shutter device that fits under the treble grille
and acts as a mute by sliding a shutter to impede the direct path of the sound/air

a Luciano is the guy who designed and built your Serenellini accordion

he offers a sordino for several of the models as an option mostly. they
are made of a plastic film of some type.. i don't know which model you have
but one might be available for it, He does not show sordino's in his
catalog anymore, but no doubt he can still make one when needed
and of course he has the specifications for any he made in the past

i don't know of any sordino being made for the bass side, but
it would not be too difficult to imagine or kraft some sliding
shutter for a bass plate, depending on the position of it's air-holes
and clearance, for me, i suppose i would just make myself a new bass-plate
if i had a too loud bass section, and move the positioning of the air-holes
or slots to be directly under the bass strap high and low, then install
an extra wide soft bass strap that overextends those holes/slots so the
sound hits something absorbent on the way out, plus maybe two pre-cut
wool or foam patches to velcro under the bass strap high and low
for even closer muting

 

[Monty [IIIII]]

oh, sorry,

you were mainly concerned about the bass power, but also mentioned
the overall power of the sound being too much

a Sordino is a 2 position shutter device that fits under the treble grille
and acts as a mute by sliding a shutter to impede the direct path of the sound/air

a Luciano is the guy who designed and built your Serenellini accordion

he offers a sordino for several of the models as an option mostly. they
are made of a plastic film of some type.. i don't know which model you have
but one might be available for it, He does not show sordino's in his
catalog anymore, but no doubt he can still make one when needed
and of course he has the specifications for any he made in the past

i don't know of any sordino being made for the bass side, but
it would not be too difficult to imagine or kraft some sliding
shutter for a bass plate, depending on the position of it's air-holes
and clearance, for me, i suppose i would just make myself a new bass-plate
if i had a too loud bass section, and move the positioning of the air-holes
or slots to be directly under the bass strap high and low, then install
an extra wide soft bass strap that overextends those holes/slots so the
sound hits something absorbent on the way out, plus maybe two pre-cut
wool or foam patches to velcro under the bass strap high and low
for even closer muting

I really like my Serenellini, in fact I have two, so I should be acquainted with the name Luciano. Will make a note to self.

I've seen muting devices on the treble side. Never heard the term sordino. Useful to know. I've also seen players eliminate the treble grille to get more sound projection. So far I've not had any issues with my treble sound, though perhaps if I removed the grille, the treble side could better compete with the volume of the bass.

I like your suggestions for muting the bass, though I'm reluctant to start experimenting on my nearly new instrument. I used to have a closet full of old accordions which would be suitable for experimentation since they had the same issue with sound balance. Sorry now I gave them away. I do know an accordion technician with a boat load of old accordions. I could probably acquire a suitable specimen from him.

My theory is to create a series of movable louvers--felt covered balsa wood -- operated by a lever or knob on the top of the bass side. This would reduce air flow from the bellows and absorb sound going back through the bellows. I would also try adding some accoustic deadening material to the holes under the bass strap. Of course there is limited space between the reed blocks and bellows, so my louver idea may be unworkable. But is seems like from what you and others have said, it might be worth the effort to experiment.

Thanks for the tips.

 

[Ventura]

the Deffner group from the Pancotti/PanCordion days
and continuing through the late 20th Century were always
poking around with engineering and materials and ideas,
many of which were patented and found their way into
Pan and Titano models from Victoria through Pigini, and i
mention this because one interesting thing they came up with
that helped control noise and volume on the Bass section
was an interesting plate idea for the 120 or so bass buttons.
They made a sandwich of 2 plates with a generous layer of
something similar to Tyvek in between, so that the buttons
did not hit against the hard sides of the holes going up and down,
but rather were slightly cushioned by the soft fibered material that
was deliberately left in excess in the holes

first time i saw that was on a Pan and thought it was cool as !

this lowered the noise from the buttons themselves, but
also somewhat closed the avenue of air/sound escape around
the buttons.. and it was hidden from view unless you looked very very
closely

dunno how one could retrofit 120 bass buttons with tiny felt
life-savers, but acoustics are acoustics !

 

[dak]

This would reduce air flow from the bellows and absorb sound going back through the bellows.

Anything that would affect the air resistance to a degree affecting the volume flow of air would completely mess up your tuning. Baffles need to absorb sound but must not significantly mess with the air path resistance up to the fundamental frequency of the reeds (damping the overtones will not relevantly affect the fundamental frequency).

 

[Monty [IIIII]]

Anything that would affect the air resistance to a degree affecting the volume flow of air would completely mess up your tuning. Baffles need to absorb sound but must not significantly mess with the air path resistance up to the fundamental frequency of the reeds (damping the overtones will not relevantly affect the fundamental frequency).

I've had a couple of reed accordions with electronic organ or MIDI options. They are equipped to switch off air flow to the reeds. I tried playing with switch half closed and found the volume of the reeds reduced without substantially changing the tone. However, if the switch went too far closed some of the reeds failed to "speak" at all. So regulating the air flow precisely was a challenge. Perhaps I should consider modifying that switch to get a precise and predictable aperture.

Obviously reeds require enough air to start and stay vibrating. Also, overblowing the reeds can change pitch and tone. My idea is to reduce some air flow while also absorbing some of the sound. How much it will affect tone is the question. Will the accordion sound muted like a trumpet with something stuffed in the bell? Or like a piano with a "quiet" pedal reducing the force at which the hammer strikes the strings. No doubt accordion builders have considered this issue of left/right balance. Maybe there is no good answer. But it seems worthwhile to investigate.

 

[debra]

I've had a couple of reed accordions with electronic organ or MIDI options. They are equipped to switch off air flow to the reeds. I tried playing with switch half closed and found the volume of the reeds reduced without substantially changing the tone. However, if the switch went too far closed some of the reeds failed to "speak" at all. ...

If you half-close a register slid the frequency of the notes drops. So that is generally not a good method for trying to lower the volume.
(Some players with a dry-tuned treble side will press MM and then half-press M to get the second M to drop in frequency a bit and create a tremolo effect on an accordion that doesn't have tremolo.)

 

[Monty [IIIII]]

If you half-close a register slid the frequency of the notes drops. So that is generally not a good method for trying to lower the volume.
(Some players with a dry-tuned treble side will press MM and then half-press M to get the second M to drop in frequency a bit and create a tremolo effect on an accordion that doesn't have tremolo.)

Interesting. I never checked my results with a tuner, but it sounded ok to my ears. Then again, my ears are not so good any more.

 

[colinm]

I completely blocked the holes in my bass plate with sound deadening material because the bass was too loud and it has not made significant difference

 

[Monty [IIIII]]

I completely blocked the holes in my bass plate with sound deadening material because the bass was too loud and it has not made significant difference

Thanks for the input. I suspect a lot of the sound from the Bass side makes its way out through the bellows. Or maybe it resonates through the body of the bass chamber. Anyhow, there are lots of possibilities to explore.

 

[dak]

I completely blocked the holes in my bass plate with sound deadening material because the bass was too loud and it has not made significant difference

The air has to get in and out somewhere, doesn't it? And this stream of air is chopped into pieces by the reeds. "Sound deadening material" is usually attached to hard surfaces and absorbs (and also diffusely disperses) sound reflected from said hard surface. You need certain thicknesses to make changes affecting not just the highest frequencies. And the material has to be transmissive enough that the sound actually makes it into the material rather than just getting reflected from the "sound deadening" material rather than the surface below it.

If there are any mice inside of your accordion, the sound levels and harshness may become more tolerable for them if you cover significant ratios of the inside surfaces with your material. But holes work a bit differently.

 

[Monty [IIIII]]

If there are any mice inside of your accordion, the sound levels and harshness may become more tolerable for them if you cover significant ratios of the inside surfaces with your material. But holes work a bit differently.

Mice, there's a thought! Mice are soft and fluffy. Very good sound absorptive properties. Want more quiet? Add more mice! There's the problem of them chewing through the bellows, though that would reduce airflow to the reeds, and thusly reduce volume--except for the wheezing sounds. Of course there is the problem of mouse urine. Anyone who has had mice in the heating ducts of their car can appreciate this problem. But I definitely approve of thinking outside the box....or squeezebox as it were.

 

[colinm]

The air has to get in and out somewhere, doesn't it? And this stream of air is chopped into pieces by the reeds. "Sound deadening material" is usually attached to hard surfaces and absorbs (and also diffusely disperses) sound reflected from said hard surface. You need certain thicknesses to make changes affecting not just the highest frequencies. And the material has to be transmissive enough that the sound actually makes it into the material rather than just getting reflected from the "sound deadening" material rather than the surface below it.

If there are any mice inside of your accordion, the sound levels and harshness may become more tolerable for them if you cover significant ratios of the inside surfaces with your material. But holes work a bit differently.

I will try some carpet felt, does it have to be a specific density ?

 

[dak]

I will try some carpet felt, does it have to be a specific density ?

I may have expressed myself unclearly: you are trying dampening measures that are used on hard boundaries while your problem is sound being imprinted on air entering and exiting an outlet. The sound in an accordion does not spend a lot of time or effort bouncing around: it is modulated while getting in or out, like the noise of an air siren.

The muffler on a car is of that type: it has to provide reasonably uninhibited flow of exhaust while significantly reducing the amount of sound traveling along.

 

[colinm]

I may have expressed myself unclearly: you are trying dampening measures that are used on hard boundaries while your problem is sound being imprinted on air entering and exiting an outlet. The sound in an accordion does not spend a lot of time or effort bouncing around: it is modulated while getting in or out, like the noise of an air siren.

The muffler on a car is of that type: it has to provide reasonably uninhibited flow of exhaust while significantly reducing the amount of sound traveling along.

Ok, I will open one hole in the bass plate and put 20 cm of rubber garden hose on it packed with fibreglass and a perforated pipe down the middle.