Baffling question

[Monty [IIIII]]

A problem I've faced over the years of dabbling with piano accordion is how to keep the volume of the bass side from overwhelming the piano side (on acoustic instrument). Obviously if there are multiple banks of reeds and multiple switches on the bass side, one can switch off some of the reed banks to reduce volume. But this also changes the tone characteristics. Substituting treble, or higher pitched, reeds for bass reeds, does quiet the instrument, but I don't particularly like the sound. I want a full sound, but at a lower volume.

I've experimented with reducing air flow to the bass side by closing a switch partially. (works with midi/accoustic accordion with on/off switch on reeds) But at some point, reduced air flow prevents some of the reeds from "speaking". I've seen accordions with baffles or noise blocking devices on the piano side, but have never seen anything comparable on the bass side. I've considered trying to create some baffles with accoustic foam or similar materials to place in the reed chamber on the bass side, but thought I would ask around before investing a lot of time in experimentation.

Has anyone else here struggled with this issue? Maybe someone knows of a manufacturer who has achieved a better balance between bass and piano sides?
Your thoughts please.

 

[losthobos]

Best you can do is tape up all the holes on the bass side...
Welcome to the curse of the accordion

 

[Monty [IIIII]]

thanks for your thoughts. tape might be worth a try but no way to switch on or off. I suppose if it was easy to accomplish, it would be offered as a feature like tone chambers.

 

[murathan]

The solution is to play bass buttons staccato and less frequent. Thisway bass side will be on the background. Also use if there is a switch on bass side. Hohners generally have 3 switches. Tenor, bass and master. Tenor switch works balanced on lesser registers on treble.

 

[Mr Mark]

Some manufacturers are better than others. My old Hohners seem to have a pretty good balance. I do use internal cardboard baffles hot glued in place to combat issues with reeds that are close to the internal mic being too hot which works rather well - you might have some luck with surrounding the bass blocks on all four sides (but not the top obviously - although you probably could with some holes poked in for airflow) with cardboard baffles in this manner but would have to be sure there is enough clearance for both the reeds and bellows.

 

[PeterF]

It definitely varies from instrument to instrument and maker to maker. All the Titanos I've owned have been particularly heavy on the left hand sound. My 1960 Giulietti Super on the other hand is much better balanced. This doesn't help you much with instruments you already own, of course.

But definitely play lighter and shorter and less with your LH and that, paired with a slightly louder switch on the right hand should at least help leave some space for your RH.

 

[Monty [IIIII]]

It definitely varies from instrument to instrument and maker to maker. All the Titanos I've owned have been particularly heavy on the left hand sound. My 1960 Giulietti Super on the other hand is much better balanced. This doesn't help you much with instruments you already own, of course.

But definitely play lighter and shorter and less with your LH and that, paired with a slightly louder switch on the right hand should at least help leave some space for your RH.

good info. I've tried many accordions and own several with other good qualities. have yet to find the maker that does everything I like.

 

[Monty [IIIII]]

Some manufacturers are better than others. My old Hohners seem to have a pretty good balance. I do use internal cardboard baffles hot glued in place to combat issues with reeds that are close to the internal mic being too hot which works rather well - you might have some luck with surrounding the bass blocks on all four sides (but not the top obviously - although you probably could with some holes poked in for airflow) with cardboard baffles in this manner but would have to be sure there is enough clearance for both the reeds and bellows.

I like the cardboard baffle idea. I once studied pipe organ design and saw organs with louvered doors that opened and closed to muffle a bank of pipes. I wondered if felt covered, adjustable louvers inside the left side of an accordion would help. Perhaps they could be opened and closed with a knob or lever. Still a lot of work to test the principle, but worth it if it solved a problem that bothers many other accordionists.

 

[Monty [IIIII]]

The solution is to play bass buttons staccato and less frequent. Thisway bass side will be on the background. Also use if there is a switch on bass side. Hohners generally have 3 switches. Tenor, bass and master. Tenor switch works balanced on lesser registers on treble.

Thanks for the tip. I have accordions with as many as 6 switches on the bass side, but still haven't found the right sound. I do staccato playing on some tunes, but for others I would like a constant drone or chord sound underneath a lively melody. In Irish trad music the piano accordion is stigmatized because of the heavy "oom pah pah" associated with the stradella bass. So many accordion players avoid the bass altogether. I would like to use it but with more delicacy, hence the mute or muffler idea.

 

[John M]

If you are ever in the market for another accordion get a digital and you will have any volume balance you want between the bass and treble side.

 

[debra]

The first thing to ask is whether the bass is sounding too loud (versus the treble side) for the audience or for the player? Accordions tend to be constructed with the audience in mind, not the player. If for the audience the bass is too loud the technique of taping the holes in the bass compartiment shut may be enough. (Sound still comes through the 120 holes for the buttons.) If it is too loud for you, then it helps to look for a different place to sit: with your righthand side close to a reflecting wall (and your lefthand side not). The accordion projects the sound away from the player as much as possible (so you don't go deaf while playing) so if you can reflect some sound back to you that may help.

 

[Monty [IIIII]]

If you are ever in the market for another accordion get a digital and you will have any volume balance you want between the bass and treble side.

Thanks for the suggestion. I tried to resolve this issue with electronics. I tried a Roland digital (top model 10 years ago) and compared it to a Petosa with midi. I didn't care much for the feel or sound of the Roland, so I bought the Petosa with midi. However, setting up all the electronics and programming the MIDI turned out to be a lot of work and a bigger learning curve than I had time for. So, I play the Petosa acoustically until I feel more motivated to learn how to use the MIDI system (or somebody makes me an offer I can't refuse) While the full sized Petosa is a beautifully sounding instrument, I now prefer a smaller accoustic Serenellini because it fits better with my interest in traditional folk music and lighter to haul around to sessions and festivals.

 

[Monty [IIIII]]

The first thing to ask is whether the bass is sounding too loud (versus the treble side) for the audience or for the player? Accordions tend to be constructed with the audience in mind, not the player. If for the audience the bass is too loud the technique of taping the holes in the bass compartiment shut may be enough. (Sound still comes through the 120 holes for the buttons.) If it is too loud for you, then it helps to look for a different place to sit: with your righthand side close to a reflecting wall (and your lefthand side not). The accordion projects the sound away from the player as much as possible (so you don't go deaf while playing) so if you can reflect some sound back to you that may help.

You raise an important point. Frankly, my experience has been that the accordion in general is too loud for anyone in my blast range. I even gave up playing for years because I didn't have a place to practice without people becoming annoyed. Now I want to get back into playing in sessions and ensembles where the piano accordion is generally scorned because of its dominating sound. I'm also getting a bit deaf, so I don't always know how loud I'm playing. A mute of some sort seemed the way to go. If the environment was quiet, I could flip a switch and play quietly; if the environment got loud, I would have the capability to increase my volume. But this may be expecting too much of an accoustic instrument. As I mentioned in another post, I have explored the possibility of playing an electronic instrument with volume control, but electronics are generally scorned in the "trad" or "folk" scene where I like to play.

Acoustics of the room and positioning of accordion are interesting suggestions. I'm converting part of my condo to a "sound proof" music studio and notice big differences after removing the furniture and exposing more wall. I will have to get more soft surfaces outside the accordion as it is now too loud even for my own failing ears. And don't get me started on the arthritis. Old age sucks.

 

[debra]

You raise an important point. ...

Generally speaking the accordion is only too loud if you pull and push the bellows too hard. An accordion can play very softly but many players only use the range between "forte" and "fortissimo". I tend to use the range between pianissimo and forte. Fortissimo is rarely needed and does not produce as nice a sound anyway. The main effect of fortissimo is that the reeds are more likely to break.
I takes practice to play softly as the music requires, even when this means that sometimes you can hardly hear yourself in an ensemble with other players that play their part, which sometimes or even often can be more important than your part. Without changing your sound volume, how well you can hear yourself playing also depends on your position in the ensemble. If you sit in the front, with everyone else blasting their sound in your direction, you cannot hear yourself. If you sit in the back, with everyone in front of you blasting their sound towards the audience, you can hear yourself well enough.
One final thing to remember is that when the music score states dynamics, like piano, mezzoforte, forte, etc. these terms indicate you soft or loud your playing should sound, not how hard you need to pull. When it says "mezzoforte" and you are playing a single M reed, you need to pull quite hard, and when it says "forte" and you play LMM you need to pull much less hard because the register make the sound louder. Many accordion players seem not to realize this. They think piano means use little force and forte means use a lot of force and they ignore that the registers make a difference.

 

[JerryPH]

Generally speaking the accordion is only too loud if you pull and push the bellows too hard. An accordion can play very softly but many players only use the range between "forte" and "fortissimo". I tend to use the range between pianissimo and forte. Fortissimo is rarely needed and does not produce as nice a sound anyway. The main effect of fortissimo is that the reeds are more likely to break.

I completely agree, but there is also the factor that some lower end or older or accordions not in good shape just don't play well at low volume levels.

I've gone through the thread, there is no mention of brand/make/model. We don't even know for sure if we are talking accordion or melodeon.

If we are talking a small/mid sized box that is a 50+ year lightly (or more) abused mid/low-end accordion, it is almost a guarantee that this should be expected.

I don't get the same control from my FB36 and tiny Titano that I can get on the other accordions. Expectations need to be set before offering advice. A pic from the OP would definitely help.

 

[Ventura]

Luciano offers a sordino on many models, you might write to him
and ask if he could send the shutters and switching stuff to you
to be installed locally

there are many ways to absorb sound but some will also alter the
tone by killing a lot of the higher frequencies, so adding thick felt
in irregular shapes inside the bass chamber as well as felting
the bassplate, and then restricting the exit holes from the bass section,
is best done incrementally

 

[Monty [IIIII]]

I completely agree, but there is also the factor that some lower end or older or accordions not in good shape just don't play well at low volume levels.

I've gone through the thread, there is no mention of brand/make/model. We don't even know for sure if we are talking accordion or melodeon.

If we are talking a small/mid sized box that is a 50+ year lightly (or more) abused mid/low-end accordion, it is almost a guarantee that this should be expected.

I don't get the same control from my FB36 and tiny Titano that I can get on the other accordions. Expectations need to be set before offering advice. A pic from the OP would definitely help.

I think I mentioned that I was discussing piano accordion. I've played many brands, old and new. Some of the old ones had very little dynamic range, as you say. I had this problem with bass side overwhelming the piano side on an old Scandalli as well as a new Petosa. I am currently trying to work with a smaller and newer Serenellini which is lighter than my Petosa and easier to carry to sessions or festivals. I'm not playing orchestral music or big band or jazz. I just want to fit in with fiddles. flutes, guitars and mandolins playing fairly simple folk tunes. My playing ability on accordion is not great, though I am reasonably accomplished on English concertina. I have background in piano, organ and orchestral music and understand a bit about music dynamics and fitting in with a group. I assume I will get better if I keep at the accordion, but no matter how quietly I play, I'm seldom happy with the balance between the bass side and the piano side, despite having many choices of switches on both sides. All this said, I appreciate the comments of other accordion players.

 

[debra]

I think I mentioned that I was discussing piano accordion. I've played many brands, old and new. Some of the old ones had very little dynamic range, as you say. I had this problem with bass side overwhelming the piano side on an old Scandalli as well as a new Petosa. ...

The technique of covering the holes on the bass side remains the only possible solution then... and of course the playing technique of a lighter touch on the bass buttons and playing shorter base notes on the bass.
Still, there should be no problem to fit in with fiddles, flutes, guitars and mandolins... They are loud enough and every accordion can play softly enough to mix with these instruments. If other people keep complaining about the accordion to be too loud despite you trying to play softly it must mean they just don't like the sound of the accordion and don't want to hear it.

 

[debra]

I completely agree, but there is also the factor that some lower end or older or accordions not in good shape just don't play well at low volume levels.
...

That problem can be resolved by means of repair. To play well at low volume levels the reeds need to be voiced correctly. This is done on very high end accordions like the Hohner Gola, but not on other models. Every other accordion I get in for tuning needs work on valves and voicing as well, up to and certainly including Morinos. It's almost like accordion makers try to push customers towards the more and more expensive models by not doing the proper adjustments on the lower end models, making sure these do not play well at low volume levels.

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

That problem can be resolved by means of repair. To play well at low volume levels the reeds need to be voiced correctly. This is done on very high end accordions like the Hohner Gola, but not on other models. Every other accordion I get in for tuning needs work on valves and voicing as well, up to and certainly including Morinos. It's almost like accordion makers try to push customers towards the more and more expensive models by not doing the proper adjustments on the lower end models, making sure these do not play well at low volume levels.

What does it mean "voicing" on accordion?. I know what it means on a piano, but of course on this case it is a completely different thing