This may be the silliest question ever...

[Xiane]

I'm just sort of messing around with a giant (to me, I play two row diatonic) PA - Hohner Morino IV N a friend loaned me from their fairly extensive collection. If this is beneath notice or reply, I very much understand.

When playing do you do very much on the push? Or sort of let the bellows open on the draw unless you need more volume, and then bring it back with the air button, mostly? Obviously this wouldn't work playing quickly, and it may not work at all. I'm just used to more or less constantly push or pull, so I really don't know.

 

[Dingo40]

When playing do you do very much on the push? Or sort of let the bellows open on the draw unless you need more volume, and then bring it back with the air button, mostly?

Xiane,
First, no matter how crazy it may seem, someone somewhere is doing it.
So, yes, in the North of Italy, there's actually a musical genre (Liscio) in which as much is played on the draw as possible. In fact, many practitioners have accordions without any bass reeds installed.
Most of the rest of us play on the draw until we run out of air when we change direction and play on the push and so forth, using bass and treble simultaneously.
Of course, there are rules concerning just where you change direction etc.
Some accordionists (those looking for acceptance from above) are known to actually follow such rules!
I'm not aware of any genre that plays only on the push, but give them time!

 

[Ffingers]

Xiane, may I respectfully suggest using youtube's plentiful archive of accordionists at play and observe the ways in which they use their instruments.
I have found doing that to be very helpful.

 

[Xiane]

Xiane, may I respectfully suggest using youtube's plentiful archive of accordionists at play and observe the ways in which they use their instruments.
I have found doing that to be very helpful.

I appreciate it. I'm not really trying to learn it all that much, I'll be back to my diatonic right away, I just was curious how much you press vs draw generally on a big PA, without digging into the internet. (Also, you can't believe how much well meant but terrible advice I found for the B/C diatonic initially. Like people telling you the wrong key for a song they were teaching, and going from there. Which I only learned after making a fool of myself.)

 

[TomBR]

I believe disciplined bellows use is encouraged in much PA and CBA playing, certainly in more formal circumstances. Keeping to a regular number of bars out and in. (Maybe "measures" rather than bars depending on where you are.) Aim to finish your last note with the bellows almost closed.

Then again, some people are much less organised....

 

[boxplayer4000]

I believe disciplined bellows use is encouraged in much PA and CBA playing,

I'd like to emphasise this. I do this because as a largely self-taught player it was quite late before the importance of the bellows started to became clear to me.
Whether 'pushing' or 'pulling' on the bellows I would encourage players to think of the bellows use as a singer thinks about breath control ie. the right amount at the right time and breath intake at the right time.

 

[debra]

I'm just sort of messing around with a giant (to me, I play two row diatonic) PA - Hohner Morino IV N a friend loaned me from their fairly extensive collection. If this is beneath notice or reply, I very much understand.

When playing do you do very much on the push? Or sort of let the bellows open on the draw unless you need more volume, and then bring it back with the air button, mostly? Obviously this wouldn't work playing quickly, and it may not work at all. I'm just used to more or less constantly push or pull, so I really don't know.

A "chromatic" accordion (PA and CBA) is made to be played equally on draw and push. If the accordion is in good working order it should sound the same on draw and push and the air consumption (for the same sound volume) should also be the same on draw and push.
(I have seen some old accordion players whose accordion loses a lot of air on push so they can play 3 bars on draw and then just 1 on push.)
The Morino IV N is not a giant accordion: there are about as many accordions that are smaller as there are that are larger.
It's smaller but also heavier than the older Morino IV M. (The M has wider keys, but a more lightweight construction and just 4 voice bass instead of 5 voice on the N.)
Some people find it more comfortable to play more on draw than on push. (On draw gravity is helping you and on push you are working a bit against gravity.) But generally it should be pretty even.

 

[dak]

I appreciate it. I'm not really trying to learn it all that much, I'll be back to my diatonic right away, I just was curious how much you press vs draw generally on a big PA, without digging into the internet. (Also, you can't believe how much well meant but terrible advice I found for the B/C diatonic initially. Like people telling you the wrong key for a song they were teaching, and going from there. Which I only learned after making a fool of myself.)

A clue is that the air button on a unisonoric accordion is situated less conveniently for playing than on diatonic instruments and serves a much smaller hole that tends to make significant hissing noises when moving the bellows too fast. A major purpose of the air button on the unisonoric instruments is letting the air escape the bellows when closing the instrument, or adjusting the bellows position in longer breaks. The forced imbalances of melodic material when using a diatonic instrument (in the extreme case, the kind of draw-only play that Argentinian players are used to for playing reasonably complete Minor material on smaller bandonions) do not apply to unisonoric accordions.

 

[nou]

Some people find it more comfortable to play more on draw than on push. (On draw gravity is helping you and on push you are working a bit against gravity.) But generally it should be pretty even.

It’s not only about gravity. On the pull, bellows is stabilized by the geometry of the forces involved, while on the push it is destabilised. This is relatively subtle effect in accordions, but much more pronounced in concertinas, especially those with handrests far off the center of the endplates. In worst cases such concertinas become really wobbly and difficult to play. There is also the difference in the left wrist constraints between push and pull, making it anatomically different to play between directions. This makes some passages for the left hand easier to play in one of directions, depending on the passage.

Tangentially, bandoneon players also tend to play mostly on the draw, but here the (ill-) logic of the layout also plays an important role.

 

[Tom]

Xiane,
First, no matter how crazy it may seem, someone somewhere is doing it.
So, yes, in the North of Italy, there's actually a musical genre (Liscio) in which as much is played on the draw as possible. In fact, many practitioners have accordions without any bass reeds installed.
Most of the rest of us play on the draw until we run out of air when we change direction and play on the push and so forth, using bass and treble simultaneously.
Of course, there are rules concerning just where you change direction etc.
Some accordionists (those looking for acceptance from above) are known to actually follow such rules!
I'm not aware of any genre that plays only on the push, but give them time!

Dearest Dingo, in all due respect, and so Xiane can find the right videos, I believe you are referring to (predominantly) Bolognese “Filuzzi” music, which I would consider a subgenre of the broader category of “Liscio.”

In fact, in this video, “An evening show of Liscio dancing and Filuzzi Bolognese” in the first song you can see one guy playing PA in “normal” bellowing, and the other guy in Filuzzi style. The intro is kind of long but it doesn’t bother me.

Anyway, this is my understanding, Ric or one of the other Italians on here can correct me.

 

[Dingo40]

believe you are referring to (predominantly) Bolognese “Filuzzi” music, which I would consider a subgenre of the broader category of “Liscio.”

Thanks, Tom, you're right: an elderly moment on my part!

 

[Xiane]

A "chromatic" accordion (PA and CBA) is made to be played equally on draw and push. If the accordion is in good working order it should sound the same on draw and push and the air consumption (for the same sound volume) should also be the same on draw and push.
(I have seen some old accordion players whose accordion loses a lot of air on push so they can play 3 bars on draw and then just 1 on push.)
The Morino IV N is not a giant accordion: there are about as many accordions that are smaller as there are that are larger.
It's smaller but also heavier than the older Morino IV M. (The M has wider keys, but a more lightweight construction and just 4 voice bass instead of 5 voice on the N.)
Some people find it more comfortable to play more on draw than on push. (On draw gravity is helping you and on push you are working a bit against gravity.) But generally it should be pretty even.

Now I'm slightly terrified that this accordion is just a "nice mid-sized" one. It's in good shape, had been completely serviced in Germany not that long ago, and belonged to a far more serious player than me (this must have been the lighter "walking around" one, compared to the Mighty Petosa/Bugari I saw but never heard).

It was really the gravity on the draw question I was asking, so thank you, I didn't express it well. I'm trying to teach myself to instantly respond on the press/draw for a diatonic playing Irish melodies. It was a very new sensation, just having the same note either way, and wondering. My (diatonic) goal is always to keep the bellows moderately inflated, so I have room either way.

Mostly I'm just changing the voices and giving songs I know a very spooky or melancholy character, despite them being jolly reels.

 

[Xiane]

It’s not only about gravity. On the pull, bellows is stabilized by the geometry of the forces involved, while on the push it is destabilised. This is relatively subtle effect in accordions, but much more pronounced in concertinas, especially those with handrests far off the center of the endplates. In worst cases such concertinas become really wobbly and difficult to play. There is also the difference in the left wrist constraints between push and pull, making it anatomically different to play between directions. This makes some passages for the left hand easier to play in one of directions, depending on the passage.

Tangentially, bandoneon players also tend to play mostly on the draw, but here the (ill-) logic of the layout also plays an important role.

That's interesting. I sort of suspected you might really do wonky things with a concertina (to yourself or it) in terms of motion, but hadn't tried. People think of them as easier, but my suspicious is that they aren't.

 

[Xiane]

A clue is that the air button on a unisonoric accordion is situated less conveniently for playing than on diatonic instruments and serves a much smaller hole that tends to make significant hissing noises when moving the bellows too fast. A major purpose of the air button on the unisonoric instruments is letting the air escape the bellows when closing the instrument, or adjusting the bellows position in longer breaks. The forced imbalances of melodic material when using a diatonic instrument (in the extreme case, the kind of draw-only play that Argentinian players are used to for playing reasonably complete Minor material on smaller bandonions) do not apply to unisonoric accordions.

Well yeah, that air button IS inconvenient, now that you mention it, long way from C. You should get a handy big air bar.

I just thought is was all part of the suffering. It was such a different feeling than the diatonic I wondered what the goal was with most PA players. And people might be surprised, but that's the sort of information the Internet Is My Teacher stuff often leaves out. A real teacher says it in the first lesson and waits until some advanced material requires a different approach. And this is the real trouble with video teaching, which might be the best you can do, I'm not knocking it that much. Easy but fundamental questions go unasked and unanswered.

I think I've seen most of the unpaid diatonic information in English that's around for instruction, but I can't remember

 

[nou]

That's interesting. I sort of suspected you might really do wonky things with a concertina (to yourself or it) in terms of motion, but hadn't tried. People think of them as easier, but my suspicious is that they aren't.

They are... different. Their easy parts and harder parts are in different places than accordion easy and hard parts.

 

[Xiane]

I believe disciplined bellows use is encouraged in much PA and CBA playing, certainly in more formal circumstances. Keeping to a regular number of bars out and in. (Maybe "measures" rather than bars depending on where you are.) Aim to finish your last note with the bellows almost closed.

Then again, some people are much less organised....

Thanks!

 

[Xiane]

They are... different. Their easy parts and harder parts are in different places than accordion easy and hard parts.

That tracks. My teacher dissuaded me from trying to find a cheap concertina (not easy - my new line for this stuff is "The good ones aren't cheap, and the cheap ones aren't good.") and just messing around with it. No amount of well intentioned advice kept me away from trying all those basses and voices on the Hohner PA.

 

[dak]

Well yeah, that air button IS inconvenient, now that you mention it, long way from C. You should get a handy big air bar.

I got one. My accordion was built for someone with strong opinions and a diatonic background.

But I don't know anybody else with a unisonoric instrument who has.

 

[nou]

That tracks. My teacher dissuaded me from trying to find a cheap concertina (not easy - my new line for this stuff is "The good ones aren't cheap, and the cheap ones aren't good.") and just messing around with it. No amount of well intentioned advice kept me away from trying all those basses and voices on the Hohner PA.

That's certainly and sadly true. Everything below $500 is a toy, between $500 and $1500 is only a decent beginner box. This is a very pricy hobby.

 

[Xiane]

I got one. My accordion was built for someone with strong opinions and a diatonic background.

But I don't know anybody else with a unisonoric instrument who has.

Well, speaking of strong, or weird opinions, I'm getting a B/C diatonic with 36 chromatic basses restored for me.