Advice to learn how to use the free bass system.

[Jaime_Dergut]

Hello everybody,

I have a question today, how can I do pre-freebass exercises before buying an accordion with converter?

The natural answer will be, just get a free bass system and get started with it, but they are too expensive for me to just buy one and learn.

So I just wondered if there was a way I could train my left hand before getting a free bass converter. One idea I had is buying a piano keyboard and train from there.

But I am not sure if this is a productive idea.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

 

[Javthedog]

As far as I can see, freebass systems are like the cba treble - c or b griff, or an extension of the stradella bass......can't find any reference to freebass having any similarity with a piano keyboard..........chocolate teapots spring to mind. You could try, possibly turning a CBA around so the table is under the left hand.......can't quite see it though. Possibly buy/rent a Roland as I think their bass can be configured as freebass. Good luck!

 

[Walker]

Well put @Javthedog

Converter bass systems based on button accordion treble:

B system (esp. Norway)
Reverse B system "bayan" (esp. Russia/China/Eastern Europe)
C system (esp. Western Europe/USA)
Finnish system (esp. Finland)


Converter bass system based on an extension of Stradella bass:

Quint system "Palmer-Hughes" (esp. USA/New Zealand/Italy)

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

As far as I can see, freebass systems are like the cba treble - c or b griff, or an extension of the stradella bass......can't find any reference to freebass having any similarity with a piano keyboard..........chocolate teapots spring to mind. You could try, possibly turning a CBA around so the table is under the left hand.......can't quite see it though. Possibly buy/rent a Roland as I think their bass can be configured as freebass. Good luck!

I was thinking that a used Roland might be my best choice. I will look for some.

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

Well put @Javthedog

Converter bass systems based on button accordion treble:

B system (esp. Norway)
Reverse B system "bayan" (esp. Russia/China/Eastern Europe)
C system (esp. Western Europe/USA)
Finnish system (esp. Finland)


Converter bass system based on an extension of Stradella bass:

Quint system "Palmer-Hughes" (esp. USA/New Zealand/Italy)

So the C and Quint systems could be my best choices so far.

Is there a book or some way to learn them properly? I read that the Palmer-Hughes book is out of print now.

 

[Walker]

I bought these Quint free bass books online from Ernest Deffner/Busso Music (the last time I checked they were still on the website):

Palmer - Hughes Instruction Book for Converter Accordion
Palmer - Hughes Selections for Free Bass Accordion Book 1
Palmer - Hughes Selections for Free Bass Accordion Book 2

Here's a little collection of resources mainly for Quint (and some for C system) that I also found interesting:

Resources for Free Bass Accordion (Quint & Chromatic Systems)

Today I received some books I purchased through Amazon Italy. I wanted to share the titles with you because I think they are wonderful materials, particularly for those who want to learn the accordion with Quint free bass system. There are also some wonderful resources for button accordionists...

www.accordionists.info

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

I found this one here on a Canadian store:

The Complete Technique Book for the Piano Acordion, Joseph Macerollo, Chromatic Free Bassetti System

The Complete Technique Book for the Piano Acordion, Joseph Macerollo, Chromatic Free Bassetti System, folio

tredwellsmusic.com

Would that be a good book?

I am surprised of the lack of documentation at learning free bass for accordion.

 

[saundersbp]

I am surprised of the lack of documentation at learning free bass for accordion.

A lot of the best stuff isn't in English! There are quite a few really good books but they aren't known in USA/UK as they weren't punished outside Scandinavia
PM me if you need any help sourcing books for C system.

 

[brna]

If you have a bayan without a converter, you can learn free bass by turning the accordion so that the treble is on the left. I checked it myself (on B system). It's strange, but possible. The logic of the key layout remains the same. This is probably possible on both B and C systems.

 

[dak]

If you have a bayan without a converter, you can learn free bass by turning the accordion so that the treble is on the left. I checked it myself (on B system). It's strange, but possible. The logic of the key layout remains the same. This is probably possible on both B and C systems.

No, this is only possible on rotated free bass arrangements (those that have the low notes at the bottom of the instrument). This is generally only the case with Russian-style bayans (Western made B system converters will have a mirrored B system arrangement unless specially ordered).

Now as a curiosity, this video contains a rotated C system converter:


I've never seen anything like that elsewhere, and a Roland would certainly not offer that arrangement. My best guess is that someone ordered a C system converter in Russia and the manufacturer did not know what that would mean (or the available reed plates did not allow for a mirrored instrument).

If you want to check what a C system converter in the usual mirrored arrangement would be like, put on a B system accordion in the normal orientation, then reach around with your left hand all the way to the treble keyboard. If you manage that, you just need to figure out how you are going to operate the bellows...

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

Hello folks,

Recently, I heard from many people that the free bass converter it is really a thing for hard core musicians, difficult to learn, and most of all very expensive.


I also heard that you can get away with 90% of classical music with stradella alone. What do you think about that?


The more I research, the more I feel I'm going uphill, especially on price.

Just as a side note, on Romagnoli accordions in Chicago, they have a Pigini Bayan for professional use, with converter, at 12 000$. They got that instrument from a costumer that passed away, and the family decided to just get rid of it for the money. (the store doesn't even have the bayan on their website inventory. Who knows when they will be able to sell it).

Strong opinion: this makes me thing that the free bass is a very unfriendly and expensive feature that most people don't really want to mess with, thus why was never that popular, at least in North America.

For 500$ you could get a decent piano keyboard and learn for free with hundreds of tutorials on the internet. At least price and accessibility is not a blocker.

 

[dak]

Hello folks,

Recently, I heard from many people that the free bass converter it is really a thing for hard core musicians,

Any instrument you have to play yourself is really a thing for hard core musicians these days.

difficult to learn, and most of all very expensive.

I think the "difficult to learn" thing applies more to PA players than CBA players. The latter already get the "hard to learn" moniker particularly when the focus is still about rowing Michael's boat ashore C Major. But if a CBA player can row it with the right hand, he has a pretty good idea how to do it with the left.

Expensive: no question about that.

I also heard that you can get away with 90% of classical music with stradella alone. What do you think about that?

You need an arrangement that works for that and/or pretty good sightreading skills. Classical does not really fall into the chord schemes of popular music or even Jazz. And once you go into counterpoint, Stradella does not do a good job. It is more suited for melody/chord paradigms.

The more I research, the more I feel I'm going uphill, especially on price.

Sure.

Just as a side note, on Romagnoli accordions in Chicago, they have a Pigini Bayan for professional use, with converter, at 12 000$. They got that instrument from a costumer that passed away, and the family decided to just get rid of it for the money. (the store doesn't even have the bayan on their website inventory. Who knows when they will be able to sell it).

Strong opinion: this makes me thing that the free bass is a very unfriendly and expensive feature

It is not "unfriendly". It tends to end up expensive. But I got my free bass instrument (free bass not as converter but with 3 separate button rows further in from the Stradella button rows) for cheaper than a similar Stradella instrument. And recently I pointed to an Ebay auction where a Morino Artiste XN, a 5 reed instrument with Stradella and additional free bass rows and cassotto went for something like €600 or so.

that most people don't really want to mess with, thus why was never that popular, at least in North America.

"Accordion music" works fine with Stradella.

For 500$ you could get a decent piano keyboard and learn for free with hundreds of tutorials on the internet. At least price and accessibility is not a blocker.

Sure. But it's less fun to carry around than the heaviest accordions (unless we are talking digital keyboards and very modest speakers).

Converter accordions are not going to be a good target for a whim looking for a cheap instrument.

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

I think the "difficult to learn" thing applies more to PA players than CBA players.

The price is the main difference. No point on going for something more expensive if I can get the same results with a cheaper, more familiar alternative. Is all about convenience. This is suppose to be fun, and not necessarily more expensive than it should be.

Sure. But it's less fun to carry around than the heaviest accordions (unless we are talking digital keyboards and very modest speakers).

Of course I was talking about cheap digital keyboards, just to train long enough in order to use those public pianos!

I am just saying that the free bass feature is just way too expensive and inconvenient, in my opinion.

The best advice I got so far was to buy a used Roland and start from there.

 

[Ed S]

In New England and nearby, used Rolands are very scarce, not very discounted, and often visibly poorly maintained, so you may need a lot of luck and/or patience. It may be different in the Midwest. Be sure to figure out how to get it repaired beforehand. Note the recent price drop. I understand they will be shipping more to stores in March.

 

[Siegmund]

No, this is only possible on rotated free bass arrangements (those that have the low notes at the bottom of the instrument). This is generally only the case with Russian-style bayans (Western made B system converters will have a mirrored B system arrangement unless specially ordered).

I was surprised, when I visited Italy last fall, that both converters that were placed in my lap (one each at Pigini and Fisitalia) were rotated B systems.

The Pigini representative opined that something like 90% of their B-system converters had Russian rather than Western left hands now.

I don't know if that means the Russian system has gained any traction in the west, or just that they sell a lot of converters to China (which they do.)

 

[Ffingers]

I was surprised, when I visited Italy last fall, that both converters that were placed in my lap (one each at Pigini and Fisitalia) were rotated B systems.

The Pigini representative opined that something like 90% of their B-system converters had Russian rather than Western left hands now.

I don't know if that means the Russian system has gained any traction in the west, or just that they sell a lot of converters to China (which they do.)

On a clavicord kind of key board the left hand moves towards the human head as the pitch rises and the right hand away from it, generally speaking.
Bayan keyboards emulate that.

 

[dak]

The price is the main difference. No point on going for something more expensive if I can get the same results with a cheaper, more familiar alternative

You can't.
Here is a simple example:


The bass lives from the octave jumps. Stradella does not give you that. Another:


A simple 4-voice carol. It doesn't work to play the upper 3 voices all in one hand to have only the bass (overpowered and in the wrong octave) in the left hand. Some 4-voice music may work in that manner, but not all.

Mozart's March Alla Turca works reasonably on Stradella, but it's part of a piano sonata with variations, and the beginning of that sonata already does not map at all to Stradella.

You'll never run out of music to play on Stradella, but there is a lot of music that just does not map to it, too.

. Is all about convenience. This is suppose to be fun, and not necessarily more expensive than it should be.

For some people, part of the fun is being able to play what they fancy. For some it isn't. Nothing wrong with that.

Of course I was talking about cheap digital keyboards, just to train long enough in order to use those public pianos!

If you want to seriously train for playing a piano, you need a weighted keyboard. That comes neither cheap nor lightweight.

I am just saying that the free bass feature is just way too expensive and inconvenient, in my opinion.

So don't buy one and don't play pieces needing it and/or pieces not specifically written/arranged for accordion. Lots of people get along perfectly fine with that. However, if you want to play classic a lot on Stradella, be sure that you get an accordion which can be registered in a manner where the bass does not overpower the treble even for held notes:


This arrangement uses Stradella bass, but it's easy to have the treble drowned out by the bass if your instrument has just "accordion music" registrations.

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

If you want to seriously train for playing a piano, you need a weighted keyboard. That comes neither cheap nor lightweight.

Not necessarily serious, but a nice keyboard costs at least 700$, and it is easy to resell later if you need to.

So don't buy one and don't play pieces needing it and/or pieces not specifically written/arranged for accordion. Lots of people get along perfectly fine with that.

That's the kind of feeling I have that my instrument is missing something, but I suppose is going to be more complicated to amend that.

However, if you want to play classic a lot on Stradella, be sure that you get an accordion which can be registered in a manner where the bass does not overpower the treble even for held notes:


This arrangement uses Stradella bass, but it's easy to have the treble drowned out by the bass if your instrument has just "accordion music" registrations.

That's a great idea. I have a Hohner that does have a second register that halves the left side, and create some sort of droning effect.

 

[dak]

That's the kind of feeling I have that my instrument is missing something, but I suppose is going to be more complicated to amend that.

A handheld reed organ will always be missing something. Accordion is an instrument of compromise. The question is just which compromises fit your aims best. The whole Stradella bass idea is a big bag of compromises with good payoffs for a number of music styles. Converters patch up the gaps left by those compromises, not just at a cost in money but also in weight and complexity, and with some impact on the Stradella performance (like its ability to mask the octave break). That the Stradella advantages are quite relevant can be seen by counting the number of free-bass only models: they are much much rarer than even the rare converters or freebass-inside-Stradella models.

I have a Hohner that does have a second register that halves the left side, and create some sort of droning effect.

It is actually not as much a matter of sounding weak but of not interfering. A low bass register, possibly with bass cassotto of some kind, can be pretty loud and still not interfere with the higher frequencies of the treble side. Small accordions tend to be more problematic with regard to the bass masking the treble than larger ones are.

 

[Tom]

Buy the $700 Stradella. Have some fun. Worry about free bass later.