A simple song list that prepares Roland FR-4x with appropriate Set or User Program for each song

[Jorpe]

Hi, as a former software developer (many years ago), I would like to develop a simple app (for windows and maybe for windows). The idea would be a song list where a MIDI message would be sent to the accordion choosing a Set or a User Program that suits the particular song in this song list. There seems to be some applications out there that does this and furthermore presents a text-file or pdf. E.g. Songbook+ (which only seems to be available on Apple-devices). I tried the Window-based SongReperoire which seems to be able to trigger a MIDI-command. I tried that without any success.

I have the Roland Editor installed and a working MIDI-connection USBcomputer - USBaccordion and the accordion is apparently responsive to the settings I do in the editor. So, the basics is obviously working.

Is there someone on this forum that has succeeded with something like the above?

(Note: I am not a professional musician and are not looking for an advanced commercial product)

 

[Airy]

As I don't own an FR4x just a wild guess:

I assume that the Roland only listens to MIDI when "External Seq. Playback = on". But then you would not be able to play the Accordion by "hand" without an USB connection (which has MIDI in + out at the same time) and then looping / routing the Accordion's MIDI out through the computer back to the Accordion. No wireless options with USB-MIDI!

 

[Valski]

Hi, as a former software developer (many years ago), I would like to develop a simple app (for windows and maybe for windows). The idea would be a song list where a MIDI message would be sent to the accordion choosing a Set or a User Program that suits the particular song in this song list. There seems to be some applications out there that does this and furthermore presents a text-file or pdf. E.g. Songbook+ (which only seems to be available on Apple-devices). I tried the Window-based SongReperoire which seems to be able to trigger a MIDI-command. I tried that without any success.

I have the Roland Editor installed and a working MIDI-connection USBcomputer - USBaccordion and the accordion is apparently responsive to the settings I do in the editor. So, the basics is obviously working.

Is there someone on this forum that has succeeded with something like the above?

(Note: I am not a professional musician and are not looking for an advanced commercial product)

Hello Jorpe,

Are you trying to use this program to pre-select the user sets for your performance repertoire? The Songbook and other applications are used to store sheet music and you can also save your presets for your accordion plus the backing tracks. I use Mobilesheets for my Samsung tablet and it works very well for a low price ($15 USD)

I own a Roland Fr8x and use the playback function with backing tracks and really like the end result. The backing tracks are created on my Roland Bk7m which makes it super easy. You may want to invest your time in recording these as this can add a lot of extra depth to your performance.

 

[Jorpe]

Hello Jorpe,

Are you trying to use this program to pre-select the user sets for your performance repertoire? The Songbook and other applications are used to store sheet music and you can also save your presets for your accordion plus the backing tracks. I use Mobilesheets for my Samsung tablet and it works very well for a low price ($15 USD)

I own a Roland Fr8x and use the playback function with backing tracks and really like the end result. The backing tracks are created on my Roland Bk7m which makes it super easy. You may want to invest your time in recording these as this can add a lot of extra depth to your performance.

Hi Valski,
Thank you!

Yes, the functions being able to present music sheets and the playback function would not be necessary but a bonus. The thing I want is to be able to pre-select user sets or user programs when I select a song. If I understand you right it seems to work that way and the price is certainly nothing to worry about. Do you have a wireless solution for the midi communication between the tablet and the accordion?

 

[Jorpe]

As I don't own an FR4x just a wild guess:

I assume that the Roland only listens to MIDI when "External Seq. Playback = on". But then you would not be able to play the Accordion by "hand" without an USB connection (which has MIDI in + out at the same time) and then looping / routing the Accordion's MIDI out through the computer back to the Accordion. No wireless options with USB-MIDI!

Hmm, that is the kind of details I do not know anything about, but I think I understand. If the basic idea would work, I would look for a wireless MIDI solution.

 

[Tom]

Where's JerryPH when we need him! I believe he has done this.....

 

[Valski]

Hmm, that is the kind of details I do not know anything about, but I think I understand. If the basic idea would work, I would look for a wireless MIDI solution.

You will need to add something like a wireless midi device that plugs into your accordion so that it can communicate with your tablet. I have the Widi-master and it works great for me, but you probably are much more technical than I am. JerryPH, who is very competent with this type of technology has many "how-to" postings here and you can learn a lot from him.

 

[JerryPH]

Is there someone on this forum that has succeeded with something like the above?
(Note: I am not a professional musician and are not looking for an advanced commercial product)

I have successfully set up a system where the simple press on a foot pedal reconfigures the 8X *and* the BK-7m. It's pretty easy once you figure it out.



Let me know what is clear to you and what is not clear, we can walk through it together.

 

[Airy]

Hmm, that is the kind of details I do not know anything about,...

Jorpe,
sorry, maybe I was too brief.

Did you activate the "External Seq. Playback = on" setting in your FR4x? See Page 83 in the English "Reference Manual" (2016)?

If yes, you should at least be able to play a MIDI file on the computer and listen to it from the FR4x.

If again yes, this would mean, you have a "proper" MIDI connection. Means, you are able to control the FR4x remotely.

To respond to sound selection commands from remote devices it may be also necessary to activate the setting "Real Time RX-TX = on". (Page 82).

This is at least what I understand from the manual. As mentioned previously, I don't have a FR4x at hand to verify. Hopefully I'm not talking bullshit ....

... If the basic idea would work, I would look for a wireless MIDI solution.

In the same document you see in the left picture on p.84 that this should NOT be possible. The FR8 has both MIDI In and Out, with the FR4x you have only MIDI in **OR** out. And my understanding is, that you need both at the same time to remotly control the FR4x **and** play by hand.

With USB it should work, because it is always both directions. But then you would have to drop the wireless idea.

 

[JerryPH]

1 - If yes, you should at least be able to play a MIDI file on the computer and listen to it from the FR4x.

2 - With USB it should work, because it is always both directions. But then you would have to drop the wireless idea.

1 - That is not what he is asking... he is asking if someone can have the accordion "reprogram" itself to sound differently by changing to a different song from an app that can play/display music. Reference my video above, that is what I believe they are asking for.

2 - Not necessarily. CME, makers of the WIDI Master make a USB version that plugs in to the USB connector and is a 2-way wireless MIDI for people JUST like the 4X, but you need a small external battery to power it... no biggie, a small $5 USB charger from any Walmart can do that, and is easily velcro-ed to the back of the 4X keyboard.

 

[Chris Laarman]

With USB it should work, because it is always both directions. But then you would have to drop the wireless idea.

I may see two ways out for wireless. Both would likely require products by CME.
1) Use their USB Bluetooth device WIDI Bud Pro on both the computer and the instrument side - but I'm not at all sure about using it on the instrument side. This way might a WIDI Uhost in between (as a Master device).
2) Use a USB to MIDI cable like this one, then use two pairs of WIDI Master 5-pin devices (one pair per direction).

But didn't we recently have a discussion about possible alternatives to a discontinued Roland dongle?

 

[Chris Laarman]

1 - That is not what he is asking... he is asking if someone can have the accordion "reprogram" itself to sound differently by changing to a different song from an app that can play/display music. Reference my video above, that is what I believe they are asking for.

2 - Not necessarily. CME, makers of the WIDI Master make a USB version that plugs in to the USB connector and is a 2-way wireless MIDI for people JUST like the 4X, but you need a small external battery to power it... no biggie, a small $5 USB charger from any Walmart can do that, and is easily velcro-ed to the back of the 4X keyboard.

I didn't want to read the post coming in while I was writing, fearing it might destroy my text.

 

[Valski]

Jorpe,
sorry, maybe I was too brief.

Did you activate the "External Seq. Playback = on" setting in your FR4x? See Page 83 in the English "Reference Manual" (2016)?

If yes, you should at least be able to play a MIDI file on the computer and listen to it from the FR4x.

If again yes, this would mean, you have a "proper" MIDI connection. Means, you are able to control the FR4x remotely.

To respond to sound selection commands from remote devices it may be also necessary to activate the setting "Real Time RX-TX = on". (Page 82).

This is at least what I understand from the manual. As mentioned previously, I don't have a FR4x at hand to verify. Hopefully I'm not talking bullshit ....




In the same document you see in the left picture on p.84 that this should NOT be possible. The FR8 has both MIDI In and Out, with the FR4x you have only MIDI in **OR** out. And my understanding is, that you need both at the same time to remotly control the FR4x **and** play by hand.

With USB it should work, because it is always both directions. But then you would have to drop the wireless idea.

Hello there, Perhaps I'm wrong here but the purpose of the software would be to preset the register settings on your accordion automatically when you select a sheet music file on your tablet. The mobilesheets application just saves the information to speed up your settings before playing a song. It also allows you to save custom play lists to suit an occasion, so that if you're playing Swedish music you can set up a list or multiple lists for that instance or save a completely different list for a different type of music. Since I also own a Roland Bk7m orchestra module, I can use mobilesheets to save the settings on the module including tempo and backing rhythms. I've never tried using the USB port on my FR8X for this purpose but if you had the correct cable there's no reason for it not to work.

However since learning about the playback function on the Fr8x, I prefer to leave the additional gear at home because it becomes a nuisance to carry around external amplification, the Bk7m, a mixer and various other pieces of equipment. My backing tracks are saved to a USB key and this gives me ultimate portability because play lists can be created and changed quite easily and quickly before a gig for a customized performance and it's all controlled from the accordion.

 

[Airy]

... he is asking if someone can have the accordion "reprogram" itself to sound differently by changing to a different song from an app ...

... but the purpose of the software would be to preset the register settings on your accordion automatically ...

Jerry and Valski,
I totally agree with you and that is exactly where I wanted to be of help.

Jorpe was trying some software to switch sounds which was not working so far...

where a MIDI message would be sent to the accordion .... I tried that without any success.

He was thinking that he already had a proper MIDI connection.

I have the Roland Editor installed and a working MIDI-connection USBcomputer - USBaccordion and the accordion is apparently responsive to the settings I do in the editor. So, the basics is obviously working.

Now, my suggestions was to really make sure that this connection is "proper". I dowloaded the manual and found that the FR4x expects at least one setting to be activated before it is reacting on any incoming MIDI commands.

Did you activate the "External Seq. Playback = on" setting in your FR4x? See Page 83 in the English "Reference Manual" (2016)?
If yes, you should at least be able to play a MIDI file on the computer and listen to it from the FR4x.
If again yes, this would mean, you have a "proper" MIDI connection. Means, you are able to control the FR4x remotely.
To respond to sound selection commands from remote devices it may be also necessary to activate the setting "Real Time RX-TX = on". (Page 82).

Please apologize the confusion I put into this discussion - I didn't mean to.

 

[Jorpe]

I will try to conclude this discussion so far. (I am sorry if it is a little bit Swenglis, being from Sweden).

First of all, I am impressed by all the commitment to try to help. Thank you all!

• I think I was a little vague about the fact that I currently have a USB cable and wanted to test the concept before investing in any hardware or software.
• As I have now understand there is a combined MIDI jack on the FR-4x, which can be set to IN or OUT.

If I want to use the MIDI jack:

• According to the reference manual (as referred to by Airy), I have to set the MIDI Out/In to IN (which will make it impossible to use a BK-7 or similar, but that is no problem in my case)
• If I understand correctly, I should then set the Real Time Rx-Tx channels to Off (p. 83 in the Ref-manual) except for the Basic Channel, to enable the choice of SET or User Program (and of course set the chosen software to the chosen channel)
• Setting the External Seq. Playback - All Part = OFF, should ensure that the sound generator of the accordion is used.

• With the configuration according to the above, it should be possible to use the MIDI jack, but none of you seem to have a suggestion on a wireless solution for the single MIDI jack?
• BUT, after further testing this morning I discovered that the choice of Set or UPG is default on Channel 13. I tried that with my USB cable and it worked! I.e. I think it is the simplest way to go if I can get a wireless solution for the USB type B on the accordion. I assume CME WIDI Bud Pro with some adapter between USB A and C would be possible, but any suggestion is welcome.

 

[JerryPH]

There are 4 basic things needed:
1. A Bluetooth foot pedal.
2. A BT transceiver setup that can receive and send MIDI
3. A software that can send specific commands when you click the foot pedal to turn the page or turn to the next song in the list.
4. Another software that transmits everything out everywhere for all MIDI devices to "hear". (optional in this case if you do not want to control a Roland BK-7m arranger).

BT = Bluetooth.

1 - BT foot pedals, there are a few options there... AIRTURN and iRig Blueboard are the 2 main players that I can see. Both are good, get ones that have a minimum of 4 buttons (page forward/back and song forward/back)

2 - I use an FR-8X, it has 2 MIDI jacks, an IN and OUT. I use the CME WIDI Master, plug it in and am done. For your BT MIDI receiver AND transceivers, on the 4X one is kind of screwed because they gave only ONE jack that is either MIDI in or out... stupid, but a money saver. One has to then use a USB to MIDI wireless transceiver (I've NOT done the research on this, but you will ***likely*** need the WIDI UHOST from CME, which goes from your USB to this device and then also need to connect a small USB battery to power everything, I believe. I don't own a 4X, you will need to do some work or just reach out to CME and let them tell you which of their products will work for your scenario).

3 - Software. There are a few softwares out there that work on both Android or Apple. Apple I know is of a higher quality, less issues BUT the price is much higher. I chose to save longer (waited almost a year) and bought the 12.9 inch Apple iPad Pro with 1 TB internal storage. This is overkill for most but I don't recommend going under 128gb storage. My software of choice is Songbook Pro. It is a higher end page turning software, I can make many lists or sets of music. It basically does 2 things:
- turns the page or moves to the next song
- when selecting a song, no matter which you open, sends (in my case) 2 distinct sets of MIDI commands, one that the V-accordion receives to tell it what set or UPG and what register to set it to and it also sends the command to tell my BK which rhythm via a internal or USB located list to use. In those lists I can set rhythm speed and starting variation.

4 - In my case, because I need bi-directional communication from the 8X to the BK-7m to tell it what chords to change to and I need it to be able to receive commands from Songbook Pro to configure the different sets/UPG sounds I want. If you do not need the 2-way communication, you don't need this 2nd software... but in my case, I use a free software called MIDI WRENCH and have the BK and 8X connect to it and in this software, use the option to ECHO ALL... easy peasy!

Then the one big part that makes all the magic happen is to have Songbook Pro "tell" your accordion what settings you want sent. For me, I send 2 commands per song, but our friend Jorpe only needs one command... the one that when he opens a song, to change to a specific registration.

I don't really feel like retyping everything, but I have all the basic instructions in both my website, and on the video below that I made:



I hope that gives some direction... shout out if you get stuck anywhere along the path!

 

[Airy]

Jorpe,

I'm glad, you got the test setup already to work.
Your chosen config parameters are different from how I understood the manual, but hey, if it works...! And the manual, I find, is not very clear anyways.

The MIDI connection is easy, at least in theory:

• Computer side:
  • If you have an Apple device with bluetooth (Macbook, iPad, iPhone) you are already half way equipped. MIDI over bluetooth is already built in.
    I read that some people had issues with the reliability, so you may want to upgrade to a third party product (e.g. from CME, see below).
  • Whether Windows devices have the necessary hardware and software may vary from device to device.
    In this case you probably should buy the already recommended (by Chris Laarman) third party adaptor "CMC WIDI Bud Pro".
  • I don't know about the situation with Linux and Android, sorry!
• Accordion side:
  • You have only one MIDI connector and all wireless adapters I know have two buds (MIDI in / MIDI out). Regarding MIDI this is not a problem, you just plug in the connector you need and leave the other one bouncing around or fasten it somehow.
    The next problem is that these adpters need power. I can tell that my FR1x's MIDI "Out" (!) does provide sufficient power internally through the MIDI connector to drive my adapter so I don't need any extra power source.
    But with the FR4x and especially because you will use the connector as MIDI "In" I am not sure. Probably you should prefer a device which can be suplied with external power like the "CME Widi Jack". This one has also the advantage that you can omit the second MIDI connection which will not be of any use for you anyway.
  • And if you need an extra power source anyway ( a small USB power bank does the trick) I personally would prefer the suggestion by JerryPH:
    "CME ... make a USB version that plugs in to the USB connector and is a 2-way wireless MIDI". This one is called "CME Widi Uhost". Whether this will work or not is out of my experience.
  • And last but not least you'll probably need a handful of cable ties or a roll of gaffa tape

ADDENDUM: I didn't / couldn't read the last posting from JerryPH beause I was already typing. Read his advice carefully because he HAS the experience - my suggestions are from reading only.

 

[JerryPH]

• BUT, after further testing this morning I discovered that the choice of Set or UPG is default on Channel 13. I tried that with my USB cable and it worked! I.e. I think it is the simplest way to go if I can get a wireless solution for the USB type B on the accordion. I assume CME WIDI Bud Pro with some adapter between USB A and C would be possible, but any suggestion is welcome.

I see why this is not working for you.

First, MIDI Channel info is NOT needed. Your software sends 3 MIDI codes on specific banks to tell what you want to use, a UPG or a SET, then WHICH set or UPG and then WHICH register.

Your software app specifically needs to be able to set these 3 parameters:


The 3 parameters are MSB, LSB and PG.
MSB parameter 000 tells the accordion that you are referencing a SET
MSB parameter 001 tells the accordion that you are referencing a USER PROGRAM
LSB refers to a specific SET or UPG numerically (first bank is 000, second bank is 001, third bank is 002 and so on up to the internal maximum of 999 user sets or UPGs for an FR-8X V-accordion).
PG refers to a SPECIFIC REGISTER (1-14). (000 is register #1, 001 is register #2, up to register 14 which is setting 013 (it goes NO HIGHER).

So, let's say that you want to use the FIRST USER PROGRAM bank, and FIRST REGISTER, the banks need to be set to the way you see it above.

Nowhere in the Songbook app or the accordion do you need to reference a MIDI channel for this to work... that's the part that you were overthinking AND not understanding.

I think you were looking at THIS in the reference manual:

Those are the channels that your FR-4X transmits and receives MIDI musical note data info on... NOT what controls your accordion.

Does that make sense?

 

[Jorpe]

I see why this is not working for you.

First, MIDI Channel info is NOT needed. Your software sends 3 MIDI codes on specific banks to tell what you want to use, a UPG or a SET, then WHICH set or UPG and then WHICH register.

Your software app specifically needs to be able to set these 3 parameters:


The 3 parameters are MSB, LSB and PG.
MSB parameter 000 tells the accordion that you are referencing a SET
MSB parameter 001 tells the accordion that you are referencing a USER PROGRAM
LSB refers to a specific SET or UPG numerically (first bank is 000, second bank is 001, third bank is 002 and so on up to the internal maximum of 999 user sets or UPGs for an FR-8X V-accordion).
PG refers to a SPECIFIC REGISTER (1-14). (000 is register #1, 001 is register #2, up to register 14 which is setting 013 (it goes NO HIGHER).

So, let's say that you want to use the FIRST USER PROGRAM bank, and FIRST REGISTER, the banks need to be set to the way you see it above.

Nowhere in the Songbook app or the accordion do you need to reference a MIDI channel for this to work... that's the part that you were overthinking AND not understanding.

I think you were looking at THIS in the reference manual:

Those are the channels that your FR-4X transmits and receives MIDI musical note data info on... NOT what controls your accordion.

Does that make sense?

Hi again Jerry,
I am grateful that you share your knowledge and I have definitely not any deeper knowledge in this area. But I am a little bit offended that you make assumptions of my knowledge and my ability to understand technical issues. Since, I have succeeded with the test setup, I can go on and maybe invest in hardware (where your information in previous post will be valueable).

Now, regarding the channel I am not entirely convinced, but please correct me with facts if I am wrong.

I am not using Songbook+, but I can see that the integration posted here says tells you to change Real Time Rx-TX, Basic Channel to value 1.

I did my test on the Windows app SongReperoire and in that software you can register the channel:


Apparently my accordion changed to UPG 7-7 in the example above, when I changed to the default Channel 13.

Furthermore, as I read the reference manual (page 83) I think it is pretty clear or am I missing something Jerry?


Note: I do not want to start a quarrel. If I got facts wrong, please correct me.

 

[JerryPH]

1 - I am a little bit offended that you make assumptions of my knowledge and my ability to understand technical issues. Since, I have succeeded with the test setup, I can go on and maybe invest in hardware (where your information in previous post will be valueable).

I made no assumptions and I certainly would not spend my time posting as much as I did here if my goal was to offend.

Apparently my accordion changed to UPG 7-7 in the example above, when I changed to the default Channel 13.

Ok, we're not talking the same V-Accordion and we are not talking the same software so there are definitely going to be some differences. I don't own a 4X and I don't use your software, so I cannot give you an exact process, but you are definitely on the right track if you are getting things to happen. I can only speak of and share the settings that I have documented and know work for me.

Note: I do not want to start a quarrel. If I got facts wrong, please correct me.

No quarrels were intended. If it is working for you, you've arrived at a point where you have set things up properly and you are ready to tackle the next hurdle in your process. If I have helped, great. If I have not helped, thats ok too, at least I tried.