Why ,oh why, do we need 80 plus basses ?

[jarvo]

Goldopia has prompted me to pose this question.......and I have thought about this long and hard.......12 notes in an octave on a piano keyboard, full tones and semis inclusive (well in fact ,but bear with me).......12 buttons on a Stradella row equate to this with the different layout but all the notes are represented............and given that some note have duality (there is a proper name for this, but it eludes me) so that sharps become flats ,flats become apartments and........stop it .....so that C# for instance is also Db ,D#-Eb, F#-Gb ad nauseam..........

If I am correct in this, and I can see no flaw in my logic Dr McCoy, but it is my logic and will probably stand scrutiny, why in the name of Joe Beggary do we have accordion boxes the size of ,well ,let's say small flats (apartments ...like Pippa's Voskhod (?) and other behemoths that cause serious injuries..........

So in fact with a bit of skulduggery and jiggery pokery 72, 60, 48, 36.....and at a pinch 24 button 12 row boxes should supply all the bass that you need............and arguably 72 is the biggest that you actually need to cover all basses (pun intended)..............now there may be very good reasons....(but I will not count convenience and ease of use as one......)..such as change of tone , octave differences ......and bigger bass gives more keys......but I think a 72 bass with a monster keyboard would be far more beneficial.........and lighter......and I bet I'm not the first to think this.................thinking outside the box... :tup: .......

Now stands back and prepares to be eviscerated by a storm of counter argument and better learned experienced and wise one's..................

 

[dunlustin]

I’ve asked myself the same question. I suspect a good answer would be “nobody knows.”
I offer the following to be knocked down by the better informed:

1) Shorter R-hand PA means fewer keys (ieC G etc) & less room = fewer basses
And
These instruments are for beginners who will need fewer keys – typically Bb, F, C, G, D, A = 6 * 8 = 48.
The 4 * 12 does not suffer this restriction and many don’t miss the absent two rows of chords.
and
Beginners = less “sophisticated” harmonies.

2) Posher boxes have longer keyboards = more room = more basses
i.e. if the room is there might as well use it.

Musical reason
If you want to play in Ab you need an extra button at the L-hand end to get the IV chord (Db) – it’s at the other end but BIG jump. In Ab minor you might want the minor third (B) so you need to add two more buttons to the left. And so on till you get to twenty rows.
It’s arguable that only the tiniest minority of players ever need this, so I reckon the whistles-and-bells effect might have kicked in the heady days of Accordion history. Also if you wanted the best from a melody point of view you got the 120 (96) bass thrown in. I seem to remember some boxes had 140 bass and were mostly used for Scottish Folk Music which originated in pipes and fiddles.

I also wonder if 7th and dim chords were there because they were common when Stradella became standard. As evidence, French boxes often have 3bass rows but no dim chord row.

Interestingly there is a lot of experimenting going on with the push/pull (diatonic button) accordion. Could it be because this market is thriving with many new makers and old larger ones having returned to the market? Conversely, the PA CBA market has not had the same revival – some would say it’s on the way. As a result, makers continue to do what they have always done.

Personally I’d like to see a box with at least 3 octaves on the R-hand (cba), 2 duplicate rows and 5 rows of 12 on the L-hand.
Add on: extend L-hand by 3 below Ab
No Dim? – well on a cba you have 5-rows of them on the melody side.
No minor 3rd bass? – by the time you’d want it you could get it jumping 2 buttons to the left.

Oh and while I’m at it , I’d like a Convertor bass too.

 

[Sarah]

Here in Poland 80 bass accordions are very popular
(120 bass are used here generally for sitting position
and 80 bass for playing standing up).

 

[jarvo]

My pose is based on 12 row boxes ....so there should be no key that is left out .....I believe that Db is next to Ab at the bottom of the box......

If you want B minor go up the 2nd button down from the top of the box.......yes it is a jump, but not impossible .....and there is a B (c/B row) half way up under the G (f/Row)....press that and D and you have two chords of B minor.........

......what I have noticed is that the 72 bass box seems to be the central block of the Stradella system.....it contains everything .....all the rest is repeats .......

So to me this notion that bigger is better is slightly flawed as an argument.......it just seems that bigger is flashier and more expensive, with some justification as to the quality of the build .....but hard headed logic says ...... whomsoever builds a well smart 36 key ,(three octaves) 72 bass, four voice ackordeen will be the true ruler of all Accordionland ..............and all it means is that you have to leap about the bass board a bit more lively

 

[Matt Butcher]

I do know people who use the far flung ends of the 120 bass, and not cos they're show-offs, just because they play in those keys (or they play music with a lot of key changes, more importantly) and jumping constantly from one end to the other of a 72 bass would do anyone's head in. Also there is something to be said for a big long bellows if you are playing music with long phrases, just because you get more air. So I don't think we should decide that all 120-bass players have made a big mistake.

BUT I have to say, I am not one of those people who uses the far ends. (Well I do on the free bass to some extent but that's a whole different story.). I think dunlustin is spot on, the features of what is thought to be a desirable instrument are changing as music changes, ideas develop etc. I think you already see this on manufacturers websites where the 120 basses may no longer be the flagship models.

 

[goldtopia]

Although I play a 72 bass, an 80 for those extra bass buttons I feel are well worth it, even if they are not played all that often. If your playing in Eb and they decide to bung in a Gb chord it saves the aggravation of having to go roght up the other end for an F# an back again and probably missing it. I am seriously thinking of getting an 80 Bass for that reason. I dont play the diminished much and no one notices nwhen I do.

 

[smdc66]

my coach said if i was planning to study music theory and/or play classical full size required - otherwise not required

he loves(and recommends) his 96 bass / 37 key verdi - he says regards the keys he just has enough to be versatile in the music he plays / played and think contented with bass too

 

[goldtopia]

Yes 96 would be a good size but for me at 70 a 72 bass is heavy enough for me, and if I can get a 2 voice 80 bass as well that would probably be as big as I can go. Yet I have seen kids playing 120 basses that look bigger than they are.

 

[dunlustin]

Was I clear that I agree with Jarvo without suggesting that 120 bass is pointless?
I was trying to suggest why I thought things were as they are - not saying it was right.
There is a sort of parallel with cameras. We're sold things that will allow enlargements as big as a wall when realistically all but the most ambitious will never use them.
I really like Goldtopia's comment about Dim chords.
Following the photo analogy most people say "That's a nice picture of your dog" and not "what excellent use of the rule of thirds coupled with +1 exposure compensation" Those that do aren't wrong they're just not like most people.

To widen the question, how many people use 3 or 4 voices on their accordion? This is a genuine question - no implied criticism - as I have very little experience of the use of registers.

 

[Matt Butcher]

I do use 3 and 4 voices quite a bit - just because I like the sounds. There are some weird combinations that I never ever use though. Also there's no harm in having a sound that makes what you do stand out, especially if, like me, you're never going to stand out on quality grounds alone.

 

[donn]

You know, there are really only a few reeds inside there, the minimum number to do the job - the same number of reeds whether you have 120 or 72 buttons. Plus the fiendishly complex system that wires those reeds up to various buttons to produce bass notes and chords.

From my perspective - why, oh why, would anyone settle for 72 basses, when at the cost of only some more wires and buttons we can have 120? I'm not sure I'll ever need a 120 layout, but I can't really be bothered to take that question seriously, in view of the trivial cost of having one.

 

[smdc66]

personal preferences would dictate

practicalities would generally be a consideration too :ugeek:

 

[george garside]

At the risk of being beheaded or otherwise mutilated by those of a strong of a 'classical disposition'' I would suggest that perhaps many who take up the box are perhaps to greatly influenced by the 'classicalists' !.

It is my experience that a very large proportion of those taking up the box, perhaps in middle age or later want simply to play what I would broadly describe as ''nice jolly tunes' (and maybe even some bloody miserable ones!)

These include sixties pop muisic, music hall stuff, skiffle, country and western and folk song and dance music of various nations. Perhaps a bit of traditional old tyme dance music, a few rousing marches and not forgetting slow airs and waltzes. Oh and ww1 and 2 songs such as Tipperary, pack up your troubles, Lilly Marlene etc etc - in fact the list is endless --------BUT--- is far removed from a classical ''upbringing''

This lot don't see themselves as being either 'classical' or ''folk''' but just simply as box players, and there are a great many of them including very substantial numbers who play by ear.

To them agonising about how to play ''correct'' chords. if we define ''correct'' as being as written on a piece of paper by somebody (who may not be the composer of the tune anyway) is not a problem and a lack of certain bass notes would not would not be a deterent. They just play bass ( out of what they have got) that sound good and indeed can sometimes sound better than the as writ version.

So in answer to the question of how many bass are required the main consideration is what keys are going to be used , and keeping in mind a tune can always played in a key the box has, a 48 bass box will provide reasonable accompaniment in 6 keys Bb F C G D A and a bit of something for Eb and E which is more than adequate for most 'jolly tunists''

Similarly if we look at the chords bass and majors are sufficient, counterbass very handy and minors and 7ths getting a bit posh! diminished are just not required.

So I would say that for the 'jolly tunists I have described 48 bass is fine aand anything over that either a nice bonus or unnecessary weight depending on age, physique and ailments!

I quite agree that those with a strong classical leaning need 120 bass to achieve the satisfaction they get from playing stuff exactly and precisely as writ and of course of passing exams and grades.
However I do think that the subject of how many bass are needed depends very much on the individual aand type of music to be played anad that what is needed or indeed not needed by one lot may well be be considered necessary or not necessary by the other lot.

George (trying to put forward a balanced view - hopefully!)











to

 

[smdc66]

:tup:

 

[jarvo]

You know, there are really only a few reeds inside there, the minimum number to do the job - the same number of reeds whether you have 120 or 72 buttons. Plus the fiendishly complex system that wires those reeds up to various buttons to produce bass notes and chords.

From my perspective - why, oh why, would anyone settle for 72 basses, when at the cost of only some more wires and buttons we can have 120? Im not sure Ill ever need a 120 layout, but I cant really be bothered to take that question seriously, in view of the trivial cost of having one.

I am not castigating any particular user group....I am merely posing one of those vacuous questions like the why are we here? variety........because 80 plus boxes (I have one) exist they are utilised....what I meant was ....why did they go beyond the optimum of 72 buttons.....which will do it all...jumping about a bit I admit......sorry if this is too low brow a question to engage the serious thinking intellects....and it is not about dividing the various types of players .....just why ....when everything is made just so ....why did the accordion go beyond its design and
purpose specification............

120 boxes to my reckoning ,reading the comments all over this forum are a bit like huge V8 American muscle cars,they look fantastic, sound great but wont go round corners and drink fuel ......120 boxes are easier to use in the stradella..have a bigger keyboard..but are heavy and cause injuries........(so they are yobboes as well then!)


Light weight question about heavyweight boxes ....thats all....... :ch

 

[george garside]

That's why I like the grandfather of all accordions, the ultra lightweight 10 key one row with the economical two bass

george

 

[jarvo]

Ye gods ....just think, the future could hold a mutated 240 button box with a grand piano grafted on as a keyboard...........paas my pills please nurse...

 

[donn]

120 boxes to my reckoning ,reading the comments all over this forum are a bit like huge V8 American muscle cars,they look fantastic, sound great but wont go round corners and drink fuel ......120 boxes are easier to use in the stradella..have a bigger keyboard..but are heavy and cause injuries........(so they are yobboes as well then!)

This is the point Im trying to get across. The comments all over this forum are wrong!

What, 120 bass isnt heavier? Well, a couple ounces, Ill grant. Not a pound or anything like a kilogram.

How could this be? Are you ready ... here it comes ... 120 bass accordions are heavier, mainly because they have more keys on the treble side. And therefore more reeds. A bigger reed block, with more reeds, weighs significantly more.

A few more rods and buttons on the bass side is not so heavy, and thats all it is -- there are no extra reeds, just because you have 120 buttons.

 

[Matt Butcher]

I that case then, if the question is, do I use the full range of reeds on the treble side, either directly or by using couplers, then the answer is, yeah, i do, All the time. I like the range of sounds, I like being able to make a certain part stand out etc. And when I want a simpler approach, I do indeed have the 12 button, 2 bass Italian instrument that I go on about at length here (yes, I have been lucky to have been able to afford more than one box, I am very aware that not everyone will be in that lucky position). None of this should be taken as putting down anyone else's approach and the overriding importance of something that is physically manageable, affordable and fun. (And I'm still a terrible player, but the size of the instrument I'm playing doesn't seem to affect that one way or the other.)

 

[Glenn]

If you want a decent set of keys on the treble side, the bass side will be equally as long.
Maybe 72 buttons looks a bit stingy on such an expanse of lacquered wood and plastic.
I don't think making more buttons and couplings makes it much heavier.
Of course, if you are out for a short keyboard there isn't space for 120 bass buttons.
I think the two are intimately related.
Small keyboard, smaller number of bass buttons.