Which bass system to choose?

[Hajo]

Dear members,

I'm new here and actually new in accordions as well. Thought I did have the chance to play a bit here and there.

I've one fundamental question though.

My choice of music to play will be classical mainly.

I have made the choice for the button chromatic. Feels more natural to me on the tests. B-griff seems more logical to the number of accordions available here. So the treble side is no question.

My biggest question is the bass side.

Free bass (with or without convertor) is often named in line with classical music. So I'm tempted to buy an accordion with convertor.

Does that make sense? Or is the free bass only interesting if you play very difficult music?

Secondly. I understand that free bass has two major sorts. Russian and international.

If I buy a Russian convertor free bass accordion will I limit my future development/buying in/of new accordions? Or is the Russian bass system in German and Italian accordions a normal option?

Or could I better buy a stradella bass and develop later onto free bass international?

I've got my I on a Russian student converter bass accordion.

Regards, hajo

 

[Geronimo]

My choice of music to play will be classical mainly.

I have made the choice for the button chromatic. Feels more natural to me on the tests. B-griff seems more logical to the number of accordions available here. So the treble side is no question.

Depends on where here is. Ok.

My biggest question is the bass side.

Free bass (with or without convertor) is often named in line with classical music. So Im tempted to buy an accordion with convertor.

Does that make sense? Or is the free bass only interesting if you play very difficult music?

Compare the comparatively easy Bach AIr from the orchestra suite #3 on Stradella with particular emphasis on the sound of the bass voice.

Secondly. I understand that free bass has two major sorts. Russian and international.

If I buy a Russian convertor free bass accordion will I limit my future development/buying in/of new accordions?

Yes. But its not like restricting yourself to Russian B system convertors is going to reign in your musical choices all that much. Bayans are pretty good for classical music.

Or is the Russian bass system in German and Italian accordions a normal option?

For ordering new accordions, youll be able to specify that choice. For buying used instruments, this will mainly restrict your choices to Russian ones.

Or could I better buy a stradella bass and develop later onto free bass international?

Note that Russian Stradella system is either 2+3 or has the order E-C-c-cm-c7-gdim, namely a shift in the diminished chords. My main instrument is kind of unusual in being C system and also having that order while my other instruments are normal. One gets used to changing.

 

[debra]

An accordion with only free bass can be limiting at times. So it's best to get a convertor so you can switch between stradella and free bass.
If you want to buy "new accordions" in the future I would recommend the Russian bass system. Everyone who plays B-griff that I know and who gets a new accordion is opting for the Russian bass system. With Italian accordions (that includes Hohner convertor instruments) you can order every system and every combination of left and right hand side. Last time we went to the Frankfurter Musikmesse for instance we have not seen any B-griff converter instrument with international bass layout. All had Russian layout.
Geronimo referred to the Russian standard bass which has the diminished one row over. But newer Russian accordions simply have Stradella without this oddity. So whether you get a Russian or Italian B-griff accordion the Stradella bass system is likely to be the same nowadays.

 

[Hajo]

Geronimo and Paul, thanks for your helpful answer!

"Here" would be the Netherlands. (Hoi Paul) Which is mainly b-gripp if button at all.

Great video's (though I take the first is the stradella)

It's clear to me that free bass is the best option. And the Russian bass system is fine as I understand.

I think the one I've seen is a 2+3.

I hope I'll be able to obtain it.

Regards, Hajo

 

[Geronimo]

Great videos (though I take the first is the stradella)

No. Stradella does not allow for the octave jumps.

Its clear to me that free bass is the best option.

Uh, well.

And the Russian bass system is fine as I understand.

I think the one Ive seen is a 2+3.

2+3 is not converter but always Stradella. Now I am really confused.

 

[debra]

...
Here would be the Netherlands. (Hoi Paul) Which is mainly b-gripp if button at all.
...

The Netherlands has in terms of CBA been B-system for a long time, but C-system is gaining ground.
When my wife and I made the switch from PA to CBA 10 years ago we opted for C-system.
The Netherlands are still dominated by PA but when people got a PA with converter it was always a C-system convertor. We also started with that C-system convertor on PA before making the switch, so for us C-system was logical.
But finding a used C-system accordion was a problem at the time. There are more C-system accordions by now, and especially in the higher-end and convertor instruments there is no significant domination of B over C any more, except in accordions of Russian origin. But even there, when you buy new you can also get Russian bayans in C system. (I have a C-griff AKKO bayan.)

 

[Hajo]

Dear Geronimo. I got the videos mixed up I think... Hence the conclusion... So I think it over again. Thanks for pointing it out...

Paul, the majority of second hand accordions seem to be b-griff. That might very well be the result of the price range I've been looking. But it is very good to now it is shifting.

Thank you both!

 

[debra]

...Paul, the majority of second hand accordions seem to be b-griff. That might very well be the result of the price range Ive been looking. But it is very good to now it is shifting.
...

The second hand market for CBA with convertor is pretty small in any price range.
The best thing is to first find out who can teach you CBA with convertor, and that more or less dictates the choice of system.

 

[xocd]

There is one more option for free bass: the quint system. You can see it in action on the following videos:

Greyson Masefield playing Mozart:

I. Battiston playing Piazzolla:

Francesco Palazzo playing Tailleferre:

Francesco Palazzo playing Bach:

Francesco Palazzo demonstrating arpeggios:

Richard Gallianos Victoria accordion also uses this system.

The main advantage of this system, IMO, is that with diatonic music the left hand tend to stays at the same height: motion tends to be away and towards the bellows instead of up and down. As the left hand has less mobility than the right hand, I find this more natural. (See the video on arpeggios, above.)

This system also allows for very wide chords which some people prefer on free-reed instruments. Also, one can, more or less, play bandoneon arrangement directly.

 

[Geronimo]

There is one more option for free bass: the quint system.

My personal opinion is that it makes little enough sense when you have a chromatic system on the right hand.

Though the guy whose inscription is filed into the bass mechanics of my main instrument (which is C system with a C system free bass) defied that rationale by playing a baritone bass that had just two rows in bayan direction (low notes near the floor). Probably to make the result optically pleasing because it did not yet involve the bass octave (this was concocted in the 1910s together with Morino, then an independent accordion maker in Geneva) and thus had only 36 buttons in the first iteration. Even less suited for wide arpeggios than C system, and likely quite a brain twister. In particular since you had to revert to the Stradella basses in the bass octave (which were not, as would have been customary, coupled into the chord octave).

 

[xocd]

There is one more option for free bass: the quint system.

My personal opinion is that it makes little enough sense when you have a chromatic system on the right hand.

Richard Galliano disagrees.

 

[Geronimo]

There is one more option for free bass: the quint system.

My personal opinion is that it makes little enough sense when you have a chromatic system on the right hand.

Richard Galliano disagrees.

Whats his left-hand system on the bandonion? I know that he has C system on the right.

 

[xocd]

Whats his left-hand system on the bandonion? I know that he has C system on the right.

There is no one bandoneon layout. The Argentinians favor a bi-sonoric system that defies logic; it seems to have grown from a core similar to that to an anglo (or German) concertina with notes added around that core as they were needed. You have four layouts to memorize: two for the left and two for the right. It can be argued that bandoneon tango music has adapted itself to this type of bandoneon.

Juan José Mosalini tangueando with orchestra:

There are unisonoric bandoneons with the same shape as a tango bandoneon that use a layout whose core is similar in both hands to a CBA (with extra rows presumably to allow spread chords). This type is favored by some European players (e.g., Olivier Manouri). No Argentinian tango bandoneonist would be caught dead playing one of these.

Olivier Manoury playing Round Mindnight:

 

[xocd]

There is one more option for free bass: the quint system.

My personal opinion is that it makes little enough sense when you have a chromatic system on the right hand.

Richard Galliano disagrees.

BTW, if you already play Stradella, you know the quint system: the third and fourth row play one octave higher than the bass and contrabass rows; the fifth and sixth, one octave higher.

 

[Geronimo]

Whats his left-hand system on the bandonion? I know that he has C system on the right.

There is no one bandoneon layout.

Still talking about Galliano here.

 

[xocd]

Whats his left-hand system on the bandonion? I know that he has C system on the right.

There is no one bandoneon layout.

Still talking about Galliano here.

I was referring to Gallianos accordion (C-system CBA on the right hand side and quint on the left). The bandonion he plays is unisonoric and basically chromatic C-system on both hands (with a couple of extra rows).

 

[debra]

The quint system for free bass is easier to learn for people familiar with Stradella base note layout (most proficient accordion players of any system) but it is limited to 36 notes (3 octaves) whereas even our smallest convertor accordion with C system free bass has 49 notes and the larger ones typically have 55 or 58 notes (and some even have 60 or so).
There are bandoneons that look "normal" but that have 3 rows that are C system and then there is a strange logic for the other two (smaller) rows of buttons, a logic that is different for the left and right hand as well. Galliano plays such a C-system bandoneon (in addition to accordion and accordina). There are also some strange bandoneons that have a 3-row C-system layout where the buttons are on the front of the instrument instead on the sides.
Many systems as many people want something different...

 

[Geronimo]

The quint system for free bass is easier to learn for people familiar with Stradella base note layout (most proficient accordion players of any system) but it is limited to 36 notes (3 octaves)

Or 48 notes: quite a few of these instruments have 8 bass rows.

whereas even our smallest convertor accordion with C system free bass has 49 notes and the larger ones typically have 55 or 58 notes (and some even have 60 or so).

I thought my instrument was sort of unique in that respect (60 buttons) and it isnt converter but MIII. But unique in the world of accordions is likely an illusion: there are so many special instruments around.

The thing I dont like about the idea of a quint bass is that you have to be aware of the octave break in your play because thats where you have to switch row pairs.

Ill readily admit that arranging a melody line over an ongoing organ point in the bass octave (to be played in Stradella on either converter or MIII) would appear to be more natural on quint bass. But once you work with chords and multiple voices, this seems to be getting awkward to me.

All of this stated strictly without having any quint bass experience.

 

[Hajo]

Thank you all for reacting!

It helps me out in my quest.

Regards, hajo