What Piano Do You Prefer?

[Walker]

So I was listening to a short clip of a new Yorkshire built piano, the Cavendish Chatsworth, "hand made" in English Oak:



I was also listening to a Japanese Yamaha U3, that's often seen as a benchmark conservatoire practice instrument:



Does anyone have experience playing these models?

Both instruments when new are in a similar price bracket of around £14K (ish) though there are lots of preowned U3s for around £4K. There seems to be very few preowned Chatsworths, which is not surprising given that Cavendish apparently produce only a limited number of instruments per year.

​

 

[Dingo40]

Waste of time asking me: I only have an iPhone

 

[JeffJetton]

If I had to choose one of those two to buy for myself, I'd go with the Yamaha. Tough to gauge the sound differences from those videos, but at the very least, the U3s are known to be very reliable, easy for techs to work on, and last for ages.

Plus I like the color better.

 

[Walker]

Cool, thanks for the response guys! Here's a little more info about how pianos are made, with particular reference to Yorkshire Pianos (Cavendish):

 

[Ventura]

Alfie Knight was "the" England built Piano of my era.. i imagine
there are still a few around pre-owned

the scale design.. the harp.. the quality of Spruce.. they were excellent..

our Charles Walter (Elkhart Indiana, USA) could stand toe to toe with a Knight

 

[Walker]

Thanks Ventura. Following on from my Quint PA, I'm now researching my next free bass instrument... Those Charles Walter upright pianos are beautiful, especially the antique designs:

French Provincial

 

[Frank Barocco]

I hate to be that person, but I would pick none. As a piano player, my opinion for the longest time (shared with many) is that unfortunately there is no upright piano that can be taken seriously. Of course upright pianos exist because of money and space constraints that most people face, so they have to exist therefore companies try to make them as good as they can, but at the end of the day they are riddled with limitations compared to normal (grand) pianos:

- Shorter strings. Result: A lot of unwanted overtones especially towards the left hand side and bass notes that do not sound deep enough.
- Completely different key/hammer action. Result: Considerable loss of responsiveness and different key weight.
- Left pedal is a completely different system compared grand pianos, it was supposed to be the "una corda" system but in the upright ones the hammers are just closer to the strings. This just simulates badly the una corda system. Result: loss of dynamics.
- Soundboards in upright pianos usually do not work as well, due to size, shape and string tension. Result: Not such a full sound.

Decades ago, even 10 years ago, one would not say the following but nowadays I feel this is starting to be true: If one cannot afford space/money for a grand piano, then good and modern digital pianos are a better imitation/simulation of it than upright pianos are. Though upright pianos give the appearance of a less disposable and more high class furniture than a digital piano, to me an upright is more of an outdated amateur/beginner student tool.

 

[JKJ]

…Yorkshire built piano, the Cavendish Chatsworth, "hand made" in English Oak…
…a Japanese Yamaha U3, that's often seen as a benchmark conservatoire practice instrument…

Does anyone have experience playing these models?
​

I’ve never seen a Cavendish piano but have played various Yamaha pianos over the years. The music department in the college I attended starting in 1968 had several Yamahas and others brands, and I’ve played on Yamaha pianos elsewhere. Sorry, can’t remember the models.

I was always impressed with the Yamaha pianos, both the feel of the action and the quality of the sound, even on the several in the student practice rooms.

If looking for a piano, I wouldn’t hesitate to try used models either - can be a LOT cheaper and possibly every bit as good as a new one. If you find one that seems good, it would be worth hiring a respected piano technician/tuner to examine it - there are a lot of hints of both good and bad, for someone who knows what to look for. Just like accordions and some other instruments, the use/abuse and importantly, the environment where it lived or was stored, can make a huge difference. A piano expert can also tell you which pianos to avoid. For example, they joke that “Kimball makes a good bench!”

And advice I got long ago - when looking for a new piano and you find one you like and can afford, you’ll never be sorry if you consider “biting the bullet”, and buy the next model in the lineup. A good piano is for lifetime, for yourself and maybe for your offspring.

After playing and owning a number of pianos, in 1980 I settled on my lifetime piano, a Baldwin grand, SF-10, action made in Germany, piano body and assembly in the USA. What an amazing instrument, still sounds like new after over 40 years of playing, sometimes hours per day. Zero regrets.



Note: I wouldn’t consider a Baldwin made after Gibson bought Baldwin and moved production to China sometime after the year 2000. Again, if looking today, I’d consult with an expert.

JKJ

 

[debra]

It is very hard (or even meaningless) to compare recordings of different pianos, made under different circumstances, with different recording equipment...
I have watched a documentary on the production of the Cavendish pianos. It was impressive.
But regarding these two recordings, I prefer the brighter sound of the Yamaha. The low notes are a bit disappointing but that is pretty much the case with all upright pianos when you compare to a grand piano.
I like the sound of many pianos I have played and/or heard. Some are very special, like the Fazioli, some I find particularly disappointing, most notably including Kawaii. When I was learning to play the absolute worst piano I played on was the Dutch "Rippen" upright piano. (Thankfully Rippen stopped producing in 2004.)
Based on my experience with many pianos I opted to buy a Yamaha digital piano to get the sound (and a bit the feel) of a Yamaha grand piano right in my living room. I am very happy with that piano and in fact don't use it nearly enough. (I almost only play the accordion.)

 

[Walker]

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts on your preferred pianos. This openness and generosity of spirit is superb and seems to be a virtue common to many musicians.

Really interesting @lestermann to read about some people not taking upright pianos seriously. Thank you for opening my mind to this perspective, I'll need to consider it further and try out a few grand pianos.

Hey @JKJ, that's one cool Baldwin. I sense there is much wisdom in your words too.

@debra thanks for the digital info, much appreciated!

I'm also going to try some UK built pianos too as I would like to support businesses on these Islands, maybe even an old Knight. I'd really like to try an American Walter but suspect they will be rare on these shores.

 

[Ffingers]

Here's something which might interest you Mr. Walker:

John Broadwood & Sons - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Walker]

Here's something which might interest you Mr. Walker:

John Broadwood & Sons - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Good man, Ffingers!

The oldest piano company in the world, started by a Scotsman...

Just sayin'

 

[Ventura]

well of course upright piano's are an odious compromise for a purist,
but a damn nice upright is still an awesome and fun instrument

the vibrations, all those delicate parts working perfectly together,
and perhaps most important, they are approachable for everyone..

Would you dare, wandering somewhere and coming across a 7' Grand,
to sit down and start wailing "Devil's Dance Floor" or some other such
irreverance, or would your Mother smack your hands away and scold you ?

i mean one has to be WORTHY to touch an imposing Grand, but
an upright is fair game for a smile and a lick from anyone..

regarding overtones etc. the Walters is so interesting in that regard as
Charles did his Masters thesis after years of Mathematical preparation on the
perfection of the String lengths for a (target) 45" upright piano harp/design..

most brands crafted their scale design from trial and error.. but He
gained access finally to a supercomputer and ran the numbers and simulations,
with the resultss so compelling that he got together with the Jannesen
people to do a prototype, which was again so promising, he went on to
buy the factory and put it into production

i tell you, you simply cannot hear the "break" between the bass and treble bridges

and you CAN hear that on many Grand Piano's

when i first sat down to a Blond Knight it simply made me smile ear to ear..
a clean and lovely, rich voice.. a pleasure to play.. we got it as a trade in
and tried very hard NOT to sell it actually..

i sold Baldwins at Campbells Music.. slid many a Renner Action out onto my lap
to show and tell.. loved the adjustable down-bearing in the design too with
the wrest pins rather than forged type.. was very sad to see Baldwin
destroyed after such a great History.. once the PLATE castings were lost during the
catastrophic crash there really was nothing BUT the brand name going to GIBSON

many young girls careers were launched or simply had their lives
enriched in their bedrooms and parlors blessed with a Baldwin
ACROSONIC SPINET, and thank God for their quality, tone, and affordablilty..
still a pleasure to play as they continue to stand the test of time

today, here in the USA home life has changed so much, you can barely give upright,
and often, even Grand Piano's away.. there is a Baldwin Hamilton Studio in fine condition
on offer for $200 from a family who are downsizing, languishing after 6 months
and they are faced with possibly having to pay to get it hauled away as you cannot
even donate uprights to GOODWILL in most areas.. Salvation Army is awash in old
uprights most of the time. there is an very old, classic, Knabe upright in York
i am tempted to get (free for the hauling) because the round wood claw footed stool
going with it is worth an easy $300

* sigh *

i am glad the DIGITALS have improved so much, and make ownership
possible for many (especially apartment/condo dwellers) but unlike
accordions, most can only afford the space for one at a time.. so i still
would say cloose a fine acoustic upright if you can get your hands on one,
and a Grand is not a practical option, theey still have Magic to share

 

[Rosie C]

Here's something which might interest you Mr. Walker:

John Broadwood & Sons - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I had a Broadwood baby grand until earlier this year. Lovely pianos! Sadly I couldn't justify the cost of maintaining it, keeping a room warm for it, and the cost of having it moved when we had building work done. As Ventura says, we gave away our grand piano - fortunately a local music school was able to take it.

If piano was my main instrument I'd have probably stayed with acoustic. But it's sits below recorders, mandocello, vocal, bass guitar and accordion. So I've now got a Kawai. I note Paul's comments about the brand, but I love mine and my piano teacher says of all the digitals he's played it's the one he likes best. Of course it has features no acoustic piano could have - a good harpsichord voice, MIDI accompaniment tracks from USB stick, built-in metronome etc.

 

[JerryPH]

well of course upright piano's are an odious compromise for a purist,
but a damn nice upright is still an awesome and fun instrument

According to my niece, uprights are the equivalent of Roland V-accordions to Paul DeBra... lol (but due to space limitations she plays a digital upright, a double whammy!)

Me, solely going on the sounds in the 2 videos (I know, horrible idea and unrealistic), the Yamaha tends to sound smoother. I suspect that this is the kind of question that has no true wrong answer, just that the one looking has to follow their heart as to which sounds better to them in real life.

 

[Frank Barocco]

Technical differences between grands, uprights and digital pianos aside, it is very inspiring to see people touched and motivated by any instrument, like @Ventura is saying. That is the point, to feel a connection and value it. If an instrument resonates like that with you, go for it.

 

[Walker]

Technical differences between grands, uprights and digital pianos aside

Lestermann... what have you done... it's too late now, I've discovered the grand piano...

Why did nobody warn me about the waves of sound, the depth of tone... pure awesomeness in the form of a 3/4 size Concert Grand Bluthner, built 1901:

 

[Walker]

Well, I never quite made it to Concert Grand territory, but I still got a lovely little spinet-style piano. Thanks @Ventura for the advice - I chose an old Knight K15 in the end...​

Alfie Knight was "the" England built Piano of my era.. i imagine
there are still a few around pre-owned

the scale design.. the harp.. the quality of Spruce.. they were excellent..

our Charles Walter (Elkhart Indiana, USA) could stand toe to toe with a Knight

Also in the photo:

My Scandalli Conservatorio BJP442 (V) Quint converter
A Weltmeister Rubin for my family to learn with (as well as the piano)
A borrowed Russian hromka, kindly lent to me by my buddy @tcabot!​

 

[JerryPH]

Well, your home has a bounty of musical pleasure waiting to be played and used by all in your family... very nice.

 

[Zvon]

As much as I would love a grand piano, I don't have the space or the money to have one!
For a few years, I've had a Yamaha digital stage piano and various sample libraries. I enjoyed its sound and touch but it didn't look like a real piano and the way the sound radiated (from studio monitors) was not pianistic either, it felt remote.

Two years ago, I decided to upgrade in order to have a more pianistic experience. I settled on the Roland HP704 (that was the limit of my budget too!). It has a great action and he cabinet is wood, well not hardwood but still wood. Its 4 speakers simulate very well how the sound radiates from an acoustic upright. Of course there are models with more speakers but they're more expensive.

On top of that, I can connect an iPad running Pianoteq 8 to it and have the sound coming out from the piano. Pianoteq is an excellent physical modelling software that offers many different piano sounds that can be further tweaked.

And, I have the added bonus to play with headphones if I don't want to disturb the neighbours.