Victoria tuning problems

[Sebastian Bravo]

Hi accordionists! long time has passed since i posted something, i hope everyone is ok and still playing a lot!

Recently, i found myself in a strange problem with some reeds...
I have to tune my teacher's accordion, It's a Victoria accordion, LMMH/LLH, 64/58 (104/120) with bass reinforcement.


(he's my teacher, and also a close friend!)

It mostly has small detunings... +/-5 cents in 70% of the accordion voices. But there's something that got me confused.

In the free basses, there are three voices (Low, Low with a longer pipe, High) (the second voice is placed higher in the reed block in order to fit, so it has a longer air flow).



Some voices of the second low reed are detuned, but it all depends on how much pressure you use in the bellows, and i don't know why is this happening. The wax looks ok, the valves also are in a good shape, i don't know why it doesn't mantain the pitch, and generates a lot of tremolo if you play forte.

another thing that got me confused is, the wooden pipe lowers the tone of the reed. I replaced a C reed and i had to use a C# reed in order to get a C sound...

and my last question, both lower reeds has to be tuned in unison, right? or the second one has to be tuned some cents sharper to produce a slight vibrato?

Regards
Sebastian

 

[debra]

Tuning free bass is always tricky...
First, LLH configuration requires one of the L reeds to be placed higher so as to make room for the H reeds on the same block. On a Russian bayan this is even worse as it has 4 reed sets on a single reed block (the 4-reed base notes in Stradella bass do not borrow reeds from higher octaves but are all on the one reed block, which makes the bass play much lighter to the tough than on Italian accordions. The construction here serves the same purpose: only one pallet is needed to play LLH base notes.
It is normal for very low notes to go down in pitch on higher pressure, especially on "push" (closing the bellows). But you would expect this to be similar for the two L reeds. The longer air flow should not influence that much. I have not observed this effect on accordions with "Winkelbaß" (bass block with a 90 degree angle, creating a longer air channel for the lowest reeds).
What is most important is for the leathers to be absolutely flush to the reed plate when the note is not being played. If there is a slight bulge it means that the reed next to it will start high and will drop already quite a bit by mezzoforte and then of course a lot more still when reaching forte. The metal booster springs should therefore also be flush (except for a tiny distortion near the base). Also, the reed block should fit perfectly flush on its base. Any tiny air leak at the base will cause the reed to start high and the air pressure will push the block firmly on the base when you apply more pressure, causing the pitch to go down. Also check the register slides. They should open the holes completely (and close them too). All these little bits add up to a significant drop in pitch that can only be solved by checking all of these issues.
Both lower reeds do have to be tuned in unison, but a small difference will not be perceptible. So if the one on the longer reed block side drops more in pitch you tune it to be maybe about 3 cents sharp at mezzopiano, and when it then drops a bit more than the other L reed it should reach maybe a few cents lower than the other reed and that should then still not be perceptible.
It is definitely not normal to require a C# reed in order for it to sound like C.
If all else fails, contact Elke at Victoria and ask whether this problem is known and what they would do about it...

 

[debra]

Just one more small suggestion: did you check that the register slides all open fully? When the slide opens only part-way then the reeds will be detuned, and quite possibly more so on push than on pull.
Make sure you check with the reed block in place and the accordion in the playing orientation, and then remove the reed block to check the position of the slides.

 

[Sebastian Bravo]

After some weeks of working with it, i decided to silence 3 notes. It was really strange, because the reeds were ok, the valves also. I placed these 3 reeds in another accordion and the sound was normal. Then placed them back to the Victoria, and the pressure almost kills the sound on the reeds (The gapping is also correct, i don't know why these 3 reeds sound weak when in place). I also tried replacing the voices with new Italian reeds, and had the same results. A strange, weak sound. Then i tried to seal every corner of the wooden pipe (i tought it may have been an air leak) but nothing, same results. So i just silenced them, they were Bb, B and C on the higher octave of the free basses. I really don't know why i had to place a C# to obtain C, and it also happened with the other ones. The frustration got me crazy and i just silenced these voices.

The registers opened correctly, everything is working fine in the accordion, it was the only problem and i couldn't figure out any kind of solution...

Elke didn't answer, my teacher wants to buy a new Victoria, but she isn't answering both of our messages...

 

[debra]

Odd that Elke won't answer you. Although Italy is in lockdown she is active online, on whatsapp, on facebook... Keep trying!
What you are experiencing is absolutely not normal. A C reed should sound like C and should be strong. The only thing I can imagine and which can be somewhat critical is that the valve on the inside is not opening and closing well, which in most cases is caused by it touching the side or end wall of the "chamber" it is in. If the valve does not open well then the reed on the outside of the reed block will sound weak (on push) and too low. If that valve does not close properly the air that is lost through the reed (on pull) will cause the reed to give almost no sound. Correct placement of the reed plate and the valves can be critical as there isn't much tolerance. I have had problems with large reeds and it was almost always a problem with the valves. This is especially tricky on a (Russian) bayan as all reeds are on a single plate. I have needed to file down side walls of the reed blocks, and sometimes had to retry placing the reed plates on the block a few times until all reeds could move freely (inside reeds not touching the walls) and all valves would open and close freely (again not touching the walls). A 1/10mm difference was sometimes already enough to make the difference.
Note that while a tuning table on which you can place a reed block is very useful for checking whether reeds and valves work as they should. (For tuning itself it is not useful as the tuning always differs between on the tuning table versus inside the accordion.)

 

[Sebastian Bravo]

I also checked the valve and it opened correctly, that's why i decided to just silence the reeds, because i tried and tested everything for weeks and i couldn't figure out a solution. Even with another set of reeds, using vinyl and leather valves, the reeds didn't sound correctly. I'm sure i have a video in my phone, i will post it here when i found it.