Value of accordion with midi

[colinm]

Does midi increase or decrease the value of a second hand accordion,I always strip it out and plug all the holes

 

[n9yty]

Unless it is broken, I don't know how stripping it out adds anything. If it works, I'd think it could only add to potential buyers. They don't add that much weight, do they? I guess it depends on the purchaser, you could offer that as an option if they so desired.

 

[colinm]

Agreed its not a weight thing, but there are bunches of wires, passing through holes which can cause leaks and dozens of contacts which get in the way of adjustments, and they rarely come with amplifier, expander , speaker ,plugs and cables, so they are useless

 

[maugein96]

Agreed its not a weight thing, but there are bunches of wires, passing through holes which can cause leaks and dozens of contacts which get in the way of adjustments, and they rarely come with amplifier, expander , speaker ,plugs and cables, so they are useless

Hi Colin,

I have absolutely no experience of midi whatsoever, and wouldn't even know how it works. I do believe it is still offered as an option with new accordions. Even Cavagnolo, who have made considerable investment into their "Digit" range, still offer it as an option on most of their acoustic models. 

I have such a box, imported to the UK with factory fitted midi around 1978, but the defunct midi system was removed by the dealer I bought it from before he offered it for sale. He is a specialist fitter of midi, and declared that the midi fitted to mine was well and truly fit for the scrap heap. 

Therefore all I know about midi is that it will definitely not outlive the accordion it is fitted to. Removal of all the component parts is probably wise if the midi system is no longer required or working. Electronic equipment is notorious for going out of date at an alarming rate, whereas accordion internals seem to stand the test of time. 

Just the opinion of a dinosaur, and glad I managed to outlive the majority of such species (You'll not find any wires in me!)

 

[colinm]

Agreed its not a weight thing, but there are bunches of wires, passing through holes which can cause leaks and dozens of contacts which get in the way of adjustments, and they rarely come with amplifier, expander , speaker ,plugs and cables, so they are useless

Hi Colin,

I have absolutely no experience of midi whatsoever, and wouldn't even know how it works. I do believe it is still offered as an option with new accordions. Even Cavagnolo, who have made considerable investment into their "Digit" range, still offer it as an option on most of their acoustic models. 

I have such a box, imported to the UK with factory fitted midi around 1978, but the defunct midi system was removed by the dealer I bought it from before he offered it for sale. He is a specialist fitter of midi, and declared that the midi fitted to mine was well and truly fit for the scrap heap. 

Therefore all I know about midi is that it will definitely not outlive the accordion it is fitted to. Removal of all the component parts is probably wise if the midi system is no longer required or working. Electronic equipment is notorious for going out of date at an alarming rate, whereas accordion internals seem to stand the test of time. 

Just the opinion of a dinosaur, and glad I managed to outlive the majority of such species (You'll not find any wires in me!)

Thats two dinosaurs then

 

[craptiger]

I'd love a box with Midi on it, seems such a shame to strip it out

 

[Alan Sharkis]

I ordered my acoustic accordion with midi. At the time I was playing with four other guys and the midi allowed me to provide instrument sounds we didn’t have. It was effective then, but now two of the guys have passed on, a third cannot play any more, and the fourth lives in another state half the year. I still fire up the midi from time to time. The presets I’ve created in it are still there. Removing the controller and the firing cable would leave holes in the grille and the shell of the accordion. Unlike older units, I expect this one to be operational years from now.

 

[maugein96]

I ordered my acoustic accordion with midi. At the time I was playing with four other guys and the midi allowed me to provide instrument sounds we didn’t have. It was effective then, but now two of the guys have passed on, a third cannot play any more, and the fourth lives in another state half the year. I still fire up the midi from time to time. The presets I’ve created in it are still there. Removing the controller and the firing cable would leave holes in the grille and the shell of the accordion. Unlike older units, I expect this one to be operational years from now.

Alan,

I've always wondered what midi actually was, and have never played a box that has it. I took lessons for a while and the teacher used midi to get a sound that matched my accordion. To this day I've no idea how he did it. 

I would concede that it is obviously a useful tool in the right hands.

When I lived in Scotland a popular accordion mod was for the counterbasses to be amplified. I had a Crosio accordion that had bass mikes fitted, but as a new player the only purpose it served was to amplify my mistakes! I therefore just never used it, but left all the wires and connections as they were. Never kept that one long at all.

As I say my Cavagnolo had factory fitted midi with a coupler that still mutes all the treble reeds. Just need to remember not to hit it, as the coupler is still there, and the plug on the front of the accordion, but the rest is in midi heaven.

 

[JerryPH]

IMHO, MIDI is an option, and one that never comes without a price, so, having MIDI increases the inherent value of the accordion.  That said, what that value is depends on what value the owner of that accordion places on it.

If you never use it, don't understand it and have no plans to ever use it, the value of MIDI in that case is exactly $0 (and if you just bought an accordion with MID that you never intend to use... you just paid for the MIDI anyway, as the same accordion without MIDI would be anywhere from $100-$500 less if used, and as much as several thousand dollars if new). 

If you understand it, use it and take advantage of it, then its a wonderful addition, opening the venue to thousands of sounds, instruments and (like for me) increases the pleasure value of the accordion immensely.

That said, I say that if your acoustic accordion has it, and it is functional, don't start ripping things out.  You can easily damage the accordion, leave air leaks everywhere and end up with a box that you can't play because you have damage.  If its not working and you're not a performing musician, leave it alone, its not hurting anything.  

If you are a professional and the instrument is of a high standard but has MIDI that no longer works, or it interferes with your performing *and* you know what you are doing then I suppose the only reason to remove it is because it interferes with a specific aspect of your regular maintenance and that is unacceptable.  That said, MIDI is designed to not change the way the accordion feels or plays, generally speaking.

I am of the opinion that if you bought the accordion, the price of the MIDI was obviously a consideration as part of the initial cost, and the only reason to remove it, is if it doesn't work... but then, one will have to either know what they are doing or get someone that knows what they are doing.  I've seen a few that have the MIDI removed, for some, it is near invisible, on others the covers have gaping holes and the accordion leaks 50% of whatever air you push or pull in to it, and that kills the entire accordion and adds costs to fix if it ever could be considered for any future use.

Generally, if you bought it with MIDI and are not a pro... there is ZERO reason to remove it unless you are an amateur, and want to use MIDI on a broken MIDI unit.  Removing it offers no advantage (other than *potential* increase in some very specific forms of repair or maintenance, ie: key height adjustments).  Just because someone doesn't know how to use it, removal offers the potential to ruin a good accordion.  Besides, you paid for it on initial purchase!

 

[Alan Sharkis]

The maugein96

I ordered my acoustic accordion with midi. At the time I was playing with four other guys and the midi allowed me to provide instrument sounds we didn’t have. It was effective then, but now two of the guys have passed on, a third cannot play any more, and the fourth lives in another state half the year. I still fire up the midi from time to time. The presets I’ve created in it are still there. Removing the controller and the firing cable would leave holes in the grille and the shell of the accordion. Unlike older units, I expect this one to be operational years from now.

Alan,

I've always wondered what midi actually was, and have never played a box that has it. I took lessons for a while and the teacher used midi to get a sound that matched my accordion. To this day I've no idea how he did it. 

I would concede that it is obviously a useful tool in the right hands.

When I lived in Scotland a popular accordion mod was for the counterbasses to be amplified. I had a Crosio accordion that had bass mikes fitted, but as a new player the only purpose it served was to amplify my mistakes! I therefore just never used it, but left all the wires and connections as they were. Never kept that one long at all.

As I say my Cavagnolo had factory fitted midi with a coupler that still mutes all the treble reeds. Just need to remember not to hit it, as the coupler is still there, and the plug on the front of the accordion, but the rest is in midi heaven.
Hello Maugein, 

The acronym “MIDI” stands for Musical Instrument Digital Interface.”  That’s a mouthful right there. I’ll try not to get too nerdy in describing what happens in a typical MIDI hookup, but first I must emphasize that MIDI is NOT audio. In accordion terms, the output of the mikes inside or near an accordion is an alternating current whose frequency and amplitude match the pitches and loudness of the sounds the accordion is creating. Likewise, but stronger, is the current the amplifier sends to the speaker.  Both are considered audio. 

MIDI is different. Think of MIDI as a control language in the same way that machine language (ones and zeros) in binary code control your computer and enable it to communicate with us on this forum. So, in accordion terms, I’ll describe as simply as I can what the MIDI in my acoustic accordion does. 

Assume the MIDI is powered on. I press a key and then release it. It doesn’t matter if the bellows are moving or not. A magnet mounted on the key rod comes a little closer to a Hall Effect detector which closes a circuit to a chip that generates two coded message that essentially says, “Play this note at this volume for this duration,” and that signal goes through the firing cable to a synthesizer circuit that again does two things. It generates an audio signal analogous to the note of the key I pressed that goes to the left and/or right audio outputs of the MIDI unit. The second thing it does is pass the commands on to a MIDI output connection which can go to an expander or arranger or even a digital accordion that has a MIDI input that’s properly configured.  Of course, the main purpose is to supply additional accordion and other instrumental sounds and effects, all of which are selectable from the control panel on my accordion’s grille.

There are other functions that MIDI can provide. From an accordion viewpoint, a transducer in the bellows can detect bellows pressure and/or direction and use this to send MIDI messages that, in turn, regulate the volume of the audio that the MIDI unit or an expander or arranger, if connected, sends out. I can also add that in the past, other methods were employed for detecting a key press and these other methods turned out to not be as reliable as the Hall Effect I described above. 

So, why hasn’t MIDI caught on with more accordionists? There are several factors. One is cost, as Jerry pointed out. Another is the reluctance of many Italian accordion manufacturers to offer MIDI installation in their products even though two very popular MIDI manufacturers and installers are located in Castelfidardo because those accordion makers just cannot see the value of MIDI or are too bound up in tradition. It’s also a bit incongruous for an accordionist to stand in front of an audience and play an accordion that sounds like, say, a trombone. Finally, most MIDI units require a box containing a power supply and a synthesizer chip, a firing cable, and an amplifier to be carried in addition to the accordion and other gear,or, where the connection between the accordion and that box is wireless, spare batteries when Roland and other digital accordions are self-contained.

 

[maugein96]

Alan,

Many thanks for that description. I now have a much better idea of what goes on.

My main interest, French musette, is tolerated in the UK, but if you are like me and have that genre as your virtual only interest, then there is no point in offering your services as an entertainer, as there are several old fashioned tunes that are mandatory, and I don't even know the names of most of them. 

Consequently, as an accordion recluse, if I haven't seen a photo, a video clip, or read an article, then I'm usually ignorant of such facilities as midi. Had I socialised in any of the UK accordion circles I would no doubt have encountered midi at some stage.

I've seen guys in Bosnia playing those Godin guitar synthesisers making accordion like sounds with them, and I must admit it looked and sounded pretty weird. I would definitely have the same issue with an accordion trying to emulate a guitar, and can relate to your comment about the consequences of making an accordion sound like a trombone. 

I appear to be gifted with an inbuilt "brown box system" that makes any instrument I try and play sound like c**p!

 

[Dingo40]

John,
Way back in the nineties, my accordion teacher (who was something of a technophile) purchased an accordion equipped with a built in MIDI.
To use it also required a speaker/amp., and it came with a book of instructions as thick as the yellow pages.
This gadget ( for the times) was quite mind blowing.
Using various settings, it would make playing a tune using single notes produce a sound from the speaker as if one was playing the tune using  full chords ( using any instrument or sound of one's choice. E.g.: Violin, strings, sax, trumpet (s), horn (s), moonshine jug, panpipes, even accordion   , you name it!)
Also, you could have rhythm, band, or full orchestra accompaniment, all of which would automatically match your playing speed.
As I say, quite impressive.
Unfortunately, as far as I was concerned, it did rather make the accordion into a Hammond organ.
On the other hand, it made the accordionist into a fully blown  orchestra/ entertainer.

 

[maugein96]

John,
Way back in the nineties, my accordion teacher (who was something of a technophile) purchased an accordion equipped with a built in MIDI.
To use it also required a speaker/amp., and it came with a book of instructions as thick as the yellow pages.
This gadget ( for the times) was quite mind blowing.
Using various settings, it would make playing a tune using single notes produce a sound from the speaker as if one was playing the tune using  full chords ( using any instrument or sound of ones choice. E.g.: Violin, strings, sax, trumpet (s), horn (s), moonshine jug, panpipes, even accordion   , you name it!)
Also, you could have rhythm, band, or full orchestra accompaniment, all of which would automatically match your playing speed.
As I say, quite impressive.
Unfortunately, as far as I was concerned, it did rather make the accordion into a Hammond organ.
On the other hand, it made the accordionist into a fully blown  orchestra/ entertainer.

Dingo,

I think some species of dinosaur became extinct before others, and I appear to be from one of the very oldest species.

I do remember early attempts by French players to amplify their instruments, and Im not entirely sure how they did it. Basically it involved recording everything on the single flute reed through whatever amplification was available at the time, and the results were often frankly shocking. Jazz and Swing had made their impact and three voice musette was never going to cut it from then on, except for the folk players and die hard traditionalists, bearing in mind the tradition of French musette was only a couple of generations old.

This is what it sounded like, and I suppose it could have been described as an early attempt to make the accordion sound like something it wasnt. Emile Carrara was a superb player, one of the all time greats of French musette, so he got away with it, but I wasnt smitten with his sound:-



Fortunately, as amplification equipment improved, they discovered that acoustic swing tuning sounded far better than one reed bank through an amplifier, and the old method of destroying the sound of very expensive accordions died a fairly rapid death. At times in the clip it does sound like two voices in near unison, but Im just not sure. 

Having heard those early efforts I decided that accordions and electronics belonged in two different camps, but I do realise that most present day accordionists will have never experienced what I once listened to, and are therefore not subject of my bias towards acoustic. 

In my particular case I just pick up a box, strap it on and play. If Im not satisfied with the sounds Im making then Ill pick up one of my electric guitars. Why electric guitar and not acoustic? Might just be the dinosaur in me, but it seems my playing sounds better with just a little reverb and echo!