• If you haven't done so already, please add a location to your profile. This helps when people are trying to assist you, suggest resources, etc. Thanks

Used Beltuna Spirit V LMMMH Piano Accordion

Arnaud

Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2021
Messages
20
Reaction score
18
Location
Fair Oaks, CA
I see that Kimric has a Beltuna Spirit V Root Beer-colored LMMMH full-size piano accordion for sale that had cosmetic damage from past shipping that he has repaired and that doesn't affect playability. He's listing it for $6500USD. Isn't the new price on this model up in the $18000 range? Any thoughts on the Spirit V? Has anyone owned or played one? Would this be on your acquisition wish list?
 

debra

Been here for ages!
Technical Adviser
Site Supporter
Joined
Jul 16, 2014
Messages
4,687
Reaction score
2,078
Location
Eindhoven, the Nnetherlannds
The new price of $18000 is a list price. Anyone who buys a new accordion for more than 75% of the list price is an absolute fool. A more honest store would sell for no more than 70% of the list price (without any trade in). List prices are created to enable stores to offer large discounts which then makes the customer feel better. It's just marketing.
The Beltuna is a very nice accordion. (I tried a Leader V years ago and was very impressed. I never tried the Spirit.)
Kimric appears to also have a Bugari 288 Silver for sale for $4890. That is certainly a very fine instrument. (I have played and worked on such accordions.) A very fine accordion and not as delicate as the "pure wood" Beltuna that's already damaged. But you of course need to decide whether you need LMMMH (the Bugari is LMMH). The extra voice does not represent a $1610 difference. With the Beltuna you pay extra for the (damaged) wood finish and the Beltuna name.
 

Arnaud

Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2021
Messages
20
Reaction score
18
Location
Fair Oaks, CA
The new price of $18000 is a list price. Anyone who buys a new accordion for more than 75% of the list price is an absolute fool. A more honest store would sell for no more than 70% of the list price (without any trade in). List prices are created to enable stores to offer large discounts which then makes the customer feel better. It's just marketing.
The Beltuna is a very nice accordion. (I tried a Leader V years ago and was very impressed. I never tried the Spirit.)
Kimric appears to also have a Bugari 288 Silver for sale for $4890. That is certainly a very fine instrument. (I have played and worked on such accordions.) A very fine accordion and not as delicate as the "pure wood" Beltuna that's already damaged. But you of course need to decide whether you need LMMMH (the Bugari is LMMH). The extra voice does not represent a $1610 difference. With the Beltuna you pay extra for the (damaged) wood finish and the Beltuna name.
Thanks for the tip on .75 of list price for new accordions as a reasonable price. What about how used accordions are priced? In those cases, are the sellers typically aiming more at demonstrated street value so that negotiating down isn't as likely to be accepted?
 

debra

Been here for ages!
Technical Adviser
Site Supporter
Joined
Jul 16, 2014
Messages
4,687
Reaction score
2,078
Location
Eindhoven, the Nnetherlannds
Thanks for the tip on .75 of list price for new accordions as a reasonable price. What about how used accordions are priced? In those cases, are the sellers typically aiming more at demonstrated street value so that negotiating down isn't as likely to be accepted?
70% of list price is a reasonable sale price. 75% is expensive but not yet a rip off. Anything higher means the vendor is trying to get rich too quickly.
For used accordions it's more difficult to determine value because it depends on how well the accordion has been maintained.
Depreciation can be done over 30 years. So an accordion is worth nothing after 30 years. Most accordions are still worth quite a bit because they have had maintenance. If you count an average of 50 euro per year a 30 year old accordion should have had 1500 euro in maintenance accumulated over the years.
When an accordion is 10 years old (without significant maintenance) its value is down to 2/3 of its original sale price (at 70% of list price), and this is about 50% of the current new price.
So an accordion that's 10 years old and the original bill says 9000 may sell for 6000 (and costs 12000 new today, meaning a list price of 17000).
These are all rough ballpark figures of course.
 

Ventura

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 4, 2019
Messages
775
Reaction score
669
Location
mid-atlantic, USA
just as "location location location" is an absolute in business,
"What the market will bear" is the absolute for any used merchandise

for accordions, this is complicated by the fact that accordion value is
primarily (to the general market) based on perception, which is typically
based on fairy tales

if you look on Craigslist or eBay for used accordion pricing,
it is easy to think a 2 reed accordion is worth $900 unless you realise
the 2 reed accordions listed have been for sale for 3 or 4 years
at those prices, the ads renewed perpetually

on places like this forum you have a chance to hear from real people
and get more realistic prices

a reputable dealer like Mr. Smythe price used instruments largely
on 1: what they had to invest into them (trade in, auction item, etc.)
2: how much work they had to invest in them
and 3: their standard markup formula based on their experience and business model

it is likely a fair price on this basis, for this specific accordion, at this time

a 5 reed accodion like this is a special beast, and not something just
anyone could hope to tame and use effectively, but you can get an amazing
sound out of them, and it would likely serve you for the rest of your life

good luck on your quest
 

Arnaud

Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2021
Messages
20
Reaction score
18
Location
Fair Oaks, CA
just as "location location location" is an absolute in business,
"What the market will bear" is the absolute for any used merchandise

for accordions, this is complicated by the fact that accordion value is
primarily (to the general market) based on perception, which is typically
based on fairy tales

if you look on Craigslist or eBay for used accordion pricing,
it is easy to think a 2 reed accordion is worth $900 unless you realise
the 2 reed accordions listed have been for sale for 3 or 4 years
at those prices, the ads renewed perpetually

on places like this forum you have a chance to hear from real people
and get more realistic prices

a reputable dealer like Mr. Smythe price used instruments largely
on 1: what they had to invest into them (trade in, auction item, etc.)
2: how much work they had to invest in them
and 3: their standard markup formula based on their experience and business model

it is likely a fair price on this basis, for this specific accordion, at this time

a 5 reed accodion like this is a special beast, and not something just
anyone could hope to tame and use effectively, but you can get an amazing
sound out of them, and it would likely serve you for the rest of your life

good luck on your quest
I actually went with the Beltuna Leader V LMMMH piano accordion from Accordion Gallery. I based my decision largely on how thorough Mr. Lazarov was in his pesentation photos of the instrument, sound files demonstrating its features, and meticulous instructions once shipped for unpacking and initial set up. It arrived yesterday and I've put it through its paces and am quite pleased with it. It's big but as Guenadiy promised, well balanced and not unwieldy at all. And yes, I think if will have it for the rest of my life.
 

debra

Been here for ages!
Technical Adviser
Site Supporter
Joined
Jul 16, 2014
Messages
4,687
Reaction score
2,078
Location
Eindhoven, the Nnetherlannds
I actually went with the Beltuna Leader V LMMMH piano accordion from Accordion Gallery. I based my decision largely on how thorough Mr. Lazarov was in his pesentation photos of the instrument, sound files demonstrating its features, and meticulous instructions once shipped for unpacking and initial set up. It arrived yesterday and I've put it through its paces and am quite pleased with it. It's big but as Guenadiy promised, well balanced and not unwieldy at all. And yes, I think if will have it for the rest of my life.
Congrats. The Leader V is the absolute top in "current generation" piano accordions. Not sure why you say "it's big" because the Leader V is only about the size of many 4 voice LMMH double cassotto accordions from other brands. It's definitely an accordion for the rest of your life (unless you at some point decide to switch to CBA ;) ;) ).
 

Arnaud

Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2021
Messages
20
Reaction score
18
Location
Fair Oaks, CA
Congrats. The Leader V is the absolute top in "current generation" piano accordions. Not sure why you say "it's big" because the Leader V is only about the size of many 4 voice LMMH double cassotto accordions from other brands. It's definitely an accordion for the rest of your life (unless you at some point decide to switch to CBA ;) ;) ).
You're right. Not so big after all; in fact, just right. Such a sweet sound and playability. Who knows; CBA could be in my future as it was in yours and your wife's. Never say never. ;-)
 

Arnaud

Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2021
Messages
20
Reaction score
18
Location
Fair Oaks, CA
I received the Beltuna Leader V LMMMH 44/120 piano accordion from Accordion Gallery expertly packed with photo step-by-step instructions for unpacking. All went well. Love it. Sounds beautiful. Except that it is not a Leader V, but rather a Beltuna Edelweiss Alpstar V. Apparently this model is well suited for alpine region Slovenian music of the type made famous by Slavko Avsenik. It's definitely a beautiful instrument. And sounds great to my untrained years. But was it misrepresented as a Leader V? Is the Alpstar a different version of the Leader V? Can't find any info on Beltuna site to shed light on this question. Its listed as a completely different model from the Leader series. Here's a few-years-old youtube demo of the Alpstar V accordion by a Liberty Bellows demonstrator.

Dr. Bra? Do you have experience with the Alpstar? Can you enlighten me?
 

debra

Been here for ages!
Technical Adviser
Site Supporter
Joined
Jul 16, 2014
Messages
4,687
Reaction score
2,078
Location
Eindhoven, the Nnetherlannds
I have no experience with the Alpstar. In any case the Alpstar models are not the same as the Leader. They normally do not come with "amplisound", but the one in the video does. It is definitely a case of misrepresentation. I'm not saying there is a quality difference but they are not the same model, so when you ordered one model and you receive a different model... a conversation is on order... On the other hand, if you're happy with the accordion (which certainly looks different from a Leader), you might decide to just keep it.
There may have been a mistake made by Accordion Gallery, sending you a different one than the one you ordered and they may have had both... or they may have thought it was a Leader because of the amplisound...
Did they not show you pictures before you purchased the accordion?
 

Arnaud

Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2021
Messages
20
Reaction score
18
Location
Fair Oaks, CA
I have no experience with the Alpstar. In any case the Alpstar models are not the same as the Leader. They normally do not come with "amplisound", but the one in the video does. It is definitely a case of misrepresentation. I'm not saying there is a quality difference but they are not the same model, so when you ordered one model and you receive a different model... a conversation is on order... On the other hand, if you're happy with the accordion (which certainly looks different from a Leader), you might decide to just keep it.
There may have been a mistake made by Accordion Gallery, sending you a different one than the one you ordered and they may have had both... or they may have thought it was a Leader because of the amplisound...
Did they not show you pictures before you purchased the accordion?
Yes, Paul, they did have photos of the accordion on a link on their Web site prepared by Mr. Lazarov, two somewhat lengthy sound files that he created demonstrating all of the registers (he's an incredible musician) and one that played through several pieces in different styles. The accordion has two German musettes, two Italian musettes, and two French musettes, so I don't feel limited to a Slovenian or Alpine sound. Plus instead of a lone piccilo register (which I would likely never use b/c it's out of my hearing sound range), it has what it calls an Italian master (4 voices) with the full master through the palm switch. It appears to have all of the elements of the Leader as far as I can tell and the Amplisound is a nice feature. Now that I've discovered what an alpine accordion looks like, mine looks exactly the same and I've viewed several different models from various manufacturers. I did send Mr. Lazarov an email wondering about his calling this model a Leader, but the label on the back from Beltuna says made in Italy in Castelfidardo and lists it as a Leader providing a serial number and the model "Acero" looks like; it's hand written so not sure about that last name but I don't believe intentional misrepresentation was at work here. I do plan to keep the accordion but will let you know what I hear back about the naming mixup.
 

Arnaud

Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2021
Messages
20
Reaction score
18
Location
Fair Oaks, CA
Here is a summary of the features:
  • Made in Italy, Serial Number 13234
  • Gorgeous Alpine design
  • Excellent Hand Made Artigiana Voci Professional Reeds
  • Stereo Amplified - Modern Technology Condenser microphones - Separate Volume controls for treble and bass
  • 5 sets of treble reeds - LMMMH - Select from 6 concert (dry) treble sounds and 10 musette sounds with different degree of tremolo
  • DOUBLE TONE CHAMBER (CASSOTTO) - Bassoon and Clarinet (L-M1)
  • Beltuna's patented Amplisound chamber - enhances the tonal spectrum of the chambered bassoon and clarinet reeds
  • 45 keys, 20-3/4 " keyboard (corresponds to 18.5" across the F-A 41 keys range)- wooden keys with pearl key tops - smooth edges - a delight to play
  • 15 treble switches: Basson (L), Bandoneon (LM1), Italian Accordion (LM1M2), German Accordion (LM2M3), Harmonium (LM1H), Organ (LH), French Musette 1 (MMM), Alpine Musette 1 (M2M3), Viloin (M1M2), Italian Musette (M1M2H), Alpine Musette 2 (M2M3H), French Musette 2 (MMMH), Clarinet (M1), Oboe (M1H), and Accordion (Italian 4-reed master switch) - see the picture below
beltuna-LV-13234-12.jpg
 

Tom

Been here for ages!
Site Supporter
Joined
May 1, 2013
Messages
3,021
Reaction score
1,568
Location
USA
Wow! Despite the "Leader" question it seems like an awesome accordion. I hope you love it and it provides you with years and years of musical joy!
 

debra

Been here for ages!
Technical Adviser
Site Supporter
Joined
Jul 16, 2014
Messages
4,687
Reaction score
2,078
Location
Eindhoven, the Nnetherlannds
As the accordion is what you saw and heard when it was presented, I'd just keep it. The "Alpine" style seems to be mostly cosmetic. Forget about the name and just enjoy what you got!
 

danp76

Active member
Joined
Mar 1, 2020
Messages
156
Reaction score
44
Location
Massachusetts
Congrats. The Leader V is the absolute top in "current generation" piano accordions. Not sure why you say "it's big" because the Leader V is only about the size of many 4 voice LMMH double cassotto accordions from other brands. It's definitely an accordion for the rest of your life (unless you at some point decide to switch to CBA ;) ;) ).I believe the Spirit V is Beltuna’s top model in a five reed piano accordion, not the Leader V. Of course if you want amplisound, then you’d have to go with the Leader.
 

Arnaud

Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2021
Messages
20
Reaction score
18
Location
Fair Oaks, CA
Totally happy with my Beltuna, whatever it's name. Wouldn't dream of shipping it back. Thanks for all the responses. As Paul said, the package is cosmetic; it's what's inside that counts and that's what draws me to this accordion.
 

Scuromondo

Well-known member
Site Supporter
Joined
Aug 16, 2020
Messages
338
Reaction score
227
Location
Washington, DC, USA
As the accordion is what you saw and heard when it was presented, I'd just keep it. The "Alpine" style seems to be mostly cosmetic. Forget about the name and just enjoy what you got!
Usually I expect accordions identified as “Alpine” to feature helikon reeds, which would be more than just a cosmetic difference.
 
Top