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The elusive "Double Action "

  • Thread starter Thread starter Bergkraut
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Bergkraut

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Only a few weeks into the ordeal of trying to learn to play the bellowed beast and I am already at a hurdle way above my height. Things are going reasonably well with the individual playing task for each hand but, I am absolutely hopeless at trying to get them to work together. I am practicing at least an hour every day and whilst I am improving on each side individually, the "double action" can not even be classed as a start. My tutor has given me a very simple piece to practice and after two weeks, I am still no further in achieving any coordination between left and right and it driving me nuts now. Whilst my tutor is contemplating suicide, I am starting to doubt my aptitude for learning in general. Can anyone give any advice .Please spare me practice, practice, practice... I am not lacking commitment ! However, I feel that there must be some trick or knack or witchcraft I am missing, to make the bridge to achieve coordination between left and right . So, as I already feel trepidation to post this dry-cry for help, I shall be bracing myself now for all those responses which will take the mickey. Anyway, I thought it worth a shot. Thanks in advance to those with well meaning, serious suggestions.
 
All of us looked for this ON/OFF switch which joins the two hands together. No one has found it.
Your left hand is improving. Your right hand is improving. That's the way it should be.
Look after the pennies, the pounds will take care of themselves.
Ca canny,
Garth
 
I was talking to a friend on Saturday, very good whistle, recorder and saxophone player, all of which require coordination of both hands, of course. She's recently taken up melodeon because she wanted to play something that does both tune and harmony. She admits to finding it far harder than she expected to get right and left hands playing together, but is confident that given time it will get better.
 
I find that learning a piece one hand and then the other is a way to slow down the process because then one has to do the "joining the hands' bit. I prefer to learn a piece with both hands together. Ok it might appear labourious this way but as a beginner one is only tackling simple pieces . I find it locks the two hand coordination into place, sometimes too much perhaps, in that I can find it difficult then to play one hand or the other...

Still, you are saying that you"ve only been at it a few weeks.... the first year is the hardest and can really test the resolve. When my wife was learning the Fiddle another player told her that the first six years are the worst.... I can certainly vouche for the first fours years being painfull for the other person living in a small house!

Good luck and please don't get dishearted at this stage.
 
Quote:
Please spare me practice, practice, practice...
Another quote:
Doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result is a first sign of madness.
Are you trying to 'read' and play at the same time? This is hard. Have you tried learning the tune/a tiny bit of the tune by heart on one hand first?
How about singing the right hand and playing the left? Some say if you can't sing it it's very hard to play it.
What about playing very, very slowly?
What advice has your teacher given you that has not been helpful to you?
And I go along with the both hands together suggestion as well
 
I assume you are using a recognised tutor book/method with your teacher.
Normally these books/systems start with some mind-numbing exercises that bring both hands together.
Are you trying these things?
Dull as they are they really do help get the mind to be able to coordinate.
May I ask what method you are using and what stage you are currently at?
By the way, 2 weeks is hardly a long time in the life of an accordionist :)
 
All the above advice is good - even if it doesn't agree with each other. Why? Well what's good for one person isn't for best for another. And the best approach for you can change over time.
The best bit of news you'll get here is .. it is the same for all of us at the start... How long until you can do it easily?... is another piece of string.
 
Just to repeat some of the good stuff -

Learn with both hands together!

Play this tune by ear, with both hands of course.

Two weeks!? Ha ha ha ... OK, I gather you've been at it for longer than two weeks overall, that was just this tune.

All of this - including the time, of course filled with repeated practice - has to do with the part of your brain that does music. It can control your body with exquisite precision, but it has its own way of establishing that control, and it's utterly inscrutable. You plug away and can't see what you're building, but one day you can do something you couldn't a couple weeks ago. The slow way is really the fastest - trying to think your way through the motions is a dead end.

Well, I hope I took the mickey, good luck!
 
I agree with all of the above! I won't say 'practice, practice, practice' - just, 'keep going, keep going, keep going'.

As others have suggested, the L/R co-ordination learning curve is not linear. You may wrongly deduce that because you have tried and failed to master a piece for two weeks it may never happen, or at best you will get better at a snail's pace after an age of relentless slog. The good news is - it doesn't work like that! All that trying has not been wasted. Some time - no-one can say if it will be tomorrow or a while down the line - something will connect in your brain synapses and you will make a learning jump - you will begin to 'get it'.

I would also second some of the comments above about trying different strategies - of course you should try to apply yourself to the basic exercises in your learning system, and also any suggestions made by your tutor. But as we all know, we all learn best in different ways and if something is just not working for you after a fair try - try something else. There are no 'correct' and 'wrong' ways to learn - only things which work or don't work. So yes, try singing a part, try just mastering one bar with both hands together (a bar that you like, or find easier to play); then try another; than join a few bars together. Try playing a ridiculously simple nursery rhyme by ear with a basic 'oom-pah' bass line. If earnest, systematic practice hasn't done the trick, mess around a bit. I'm no teacher, just someone who was where you were a few months ago and who faced the same apparently hopeless alien hand syndrome - and the same feeling that maybe I just wasn't going to get it. But - I did! And you will too.
 
Here's something that's not been said yet "Patience, Patience, Patience".

Be patient with yourself. Be kind to yourself. Since you're practicing, I'd bet you're getting better but may not be noticing at this time. No instrument can be mastered in two weeks, and many songs by people that have been playing for years may not be mastered in two weeks.

I agree with the comments on playing both hands together - very slowly. I have many years under my belt, when learning a new song, I'll run through once on left, then once on right, just so I know how each part goes, then work both parts together from there on.

Is it possible to talk to your tutor and see if they'll give you a different easy song to try both hands on? It could be that particular song that may be giving you trouble.

Another question for you besides the ones asked above: are you learning to read music (the dots) and play at the same time?

Good luck and be patient with yourself.

Brandy
 
Patience and really slow worked for me, some of the tedious exercises really do work. Eventually. :)
Maybe just play a C and a C major with the left and play a C in treble. Vary the right hand note lenght, but count the note value. Really, really slow. My accordion teacher used Kleine Weltreise by Elfriede Benedix as a basic tutor. http://www.preissler-verlag.de . The tunes are straightforward, at least to start with; the lay out is easy on the eye. It eventually drops into place and then hey-presto there is another problem to overcome. Keep going and as some one said to me a long time ago Keep going son, if it was easy, every *&^%*$ would be doing it !
 
Thanks for all the contributions and I will try and take something from all the different advice given and certainly encouragement from all..so THANKS !

In answer to a few questions :

The two weeks were just in reference to the particular first 2-handed piece. All in all I started 6 weeks ago.

My tutor has quite a structured method plan for me .Because I made good progress with all other task thus far, I am not doubting his drills.Hi tries different ways when he sees that I struggle and also encourages me to "mess around" with to get a better feel. The 2-handed thing is simply down to me "to get" now and it would appear that just about every beginner struggled with this to some degree.

Although we have started the note-reading-playing part, I am nowhere near playing to any of them, heck most of them still look Egyptian to me. No thus far it's the finger-number-method under the button/key search system. I have however graduated from the early days of the mirror.

As for the suffering of the other people under the same roof ; my woman is hard of hearing (not since the last six weeks but since childhood) and therefore not at all bothered but, she loves music and therefore is another person with high expectations.

I think the most none-technical and on-the-button point comment came from Brandy : patience ,patience ,patience. I am first to admit that I am not blessed with this particular virtue (not sure with any..) and this sometimes does get in the way.

So once again, THANK YOU folks and I hope that my next thread will have the header : "Eureka..two hands works for me too"
 
If you are learning to read music and learning a new instrument there is an awful lot of information processing going on when you try to play a tune.

Before you even start trying to play the first note you are already remembering the time signature and the key signature as well as trying to count time. Then you look at the first note and you have to convert the note symbol and its position on the treble staff, into playable information - note duration, note pitch, whether to play the note legato, staccato etc. Then you have to relate the pitch to a specific key on the keyboard and decide which digit of your hand you are going to use to play the note.

To achieve this you have only as much time as the tune allows before you need to be playing the next note. Ideally you need to be reading ahead, processing the information on the notes to come whilst playing the current note.

The same process applies for reading a bass line.

Try playing the treble and bass together and you have more than double the amount of information processing to cope with, in the same amount of time. More than double as you now have to not just play both the left and right hands but their playing has to be synchronised to the requirements of the music.

For someone learning to play an accordion this is usually too much to process at one go. So the trick is to tackle the processing in chunks and to give yourself more time by slowing down the playing of the music. Playing slowly and maintaining time can be particularly difficult if you are familiar with the tune as your brain will tend to want to hear it played at the speed you are used to hearing the tune.

The way I have found that works for me is to enter the music I am learning into MuseScore. MuseScore is free open source music editing software. By using the computer keyboard to enter the music this provides practice in recognising the note names, because to enter a C I have to type a C.

Once the tune is entered into MuseScore, both the treble and bass lines, I can then set the tempo at which MuseScore will play the tune back. I adjust the tempo as slow as is necessary in order to play the right hand. In this way I can give myself as much time as I need to process the information. Once I can comfortably play the treble score at this speed, I increase the speed. As I become more familiar with the music the amount of mental processing required to play the piece is reduced and I can play it faster without reaching a point where I am unable to scan ahead of the notes I am playing.

Once I have the treble side at performance speed I then repeat the process just playing the left hand bass score. By the time I have the left and right hands at performance speed I have gone a long way towards having built up in muscle memory the patterns for playing the right hand and the left hand.

When I start combining the left and right hand I usually work through the score a few bars at a time initially without playback from MuseScore, just to get a feel for how the left and right hand patterns of play relate to each other. Because of the previous practice my fingers already have a feel for the notes they need to play so my concentration can be on the challenge of making the two hands play together with the right timing. When I start using MuseScore playback again I start very slowly and gradually build up the speed.

I figure that one of the things that makes a good musician is their ability to process the information they need to process in the time available. This comes from experience and practice. By slowing down the tempo you create the extra time to allow for your inexperience, in so doing you redefine the task to match your competence.

By slowing things right down you reduce the number of mistakes you make. Your muscle memory stores the movements you make. If you keep making the same mistakes you will learn those mistakes. So playing slowly and playing the right notes helps to build accurate muscle memory.

I used to struggle for weeks trying to play a practice piece at the required speed. Without MuseScore I found it really difficult to slow the playing down whilst maintaining the time, trying to slow down and keep the tune became even more information to try and process. By offloading this onto MuseScore I can create a manageable task.

Eventually you don't need MuseScore, you just play the piece unaccompanied and can then listen to your playing to improve your expression, and take responsibility for managing the timing, now that much of the information processing task has been accomplished.

I hope this helps.
 
HI

I bought a PA two weeks ago and started playing I am an experienced piano player (not a pianist they do classical and wear suits) and I teach boogie and stride styles I would say start with the motor that is the left hand and get some bass note going as and then very slowly drop right hand notes in

You also need to practice twice as much with the left hand as most people are right handed and the brain does not talk to the left hand much

After two weeks I can play simple tunes with a chord bass line and do some basic oompahs but I have to concentrate
I am building the mental map of the 72 bass board by going over it across the chords and then down each row before I start playing Still get lost

Grim determination wins and good luck
 
Sounds like you are beginning to get to grips with the thing. Scales on the bass and counter bass can help with memory and dexterity. There is very little to beat correct repetition. Keep going!
 
It can help to visualise the bass as 4, 5 or 6 vertical rows each providing a different note (Counterbass. Bass) or Chord ( maj, min, 7th, dim) and whatever number (according to size of box) of diagonal rows each providing, with the exeption of the counterbass, notes & chords of a particular key. Also to visualise the stacks of diagonal rows as going up or down in 5ths from the C diagonal row.

Using this mental picture playing in all keys is the same and requires little or no 'new' learning - just start on the appropriate diagonal row and the fingering for scales, chords etc is the same.

george
 
Dear Bergkraut

I teach piano - most pupils do not play hands together until about 6 weeks into lessons - some take 8 weeks or more to achieve this
Most beginner books start playing either left hand or right hand first and then combine them very slowly Sounds to me as if you are on track keep going !
 
Geoff de Limousin said:
I find that learning a piece one hand and then the other is a way to slow down the process because then one has to do the joining the hands bit. I prefer to learn a piece with both hands together. Ok it might appear labourious this way but as a beginner one is only tackling simple pieces. I find it locks the two hand coordination into place, sometimes too much perhaps, in that I can find it difficult then to play one hand or the other ...
BrandyD said:
I agree with the comments on playing both hands together - very slowly. I have many years under my belt, when learning a new song, Ill run through once on left, then once on right, just so I know how each part goes, then work both parts together from there on.
hais1273 said:
Patience and really slow worked for me, some of the tedious exercises really do work.
Johnathan said:
When I start using MuseScore playback again I start very slowly and gradually build up the speed.
I figure that one of the things that makes a good musician is their ability to process the information they need to process in the time available. This comes from experience and practice. By slowing down the tempo you create the extra time to allow for your inexperience, in so doing you redefine the task to match your competence.
By slowing things right down you reduce the number of mistakes you make. Your muscle memory stores the movements you make. If you keep making the same mistakes you will learn those mistakes. So playing slowly and playing the right notes helps to build accurate muscle memory.
Hi,

As a newbie I agree with these quotes and must say that patience and starting really slow with both hands is the way I managed to learn half a dozen easy tunes. I use Transcribe to slow down the music and speed up with little steps, and it works. YMMV.
 
Which size accordion do you have, I started with an 8 bass, it was cheap and made things much easier


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
It can often help beginners to keep time with the foot or even feet. This comes very naturally to many but if it doesn't try playing a steady 4/4 march eg its a long way to tippary on the treble only keeping tome with the foot. . The bass should follow the feet i.e. foot down = bass, foot up = chord. The foot then acts as a built in metronome to which the bass is played.

3/4 is similar in that its foot down = bass and foot up = chord chord. You can do foot down followed by foot up up or foot down followed by a longer period i.e. 2 beatsworth of foot up. Daisy Bell (daisy daisy) is a good tune to try as the first 4 bars require have just 3 notes which fit perfectly with um pa pa or foot down up up!

It can also help to learn to dance in order to facilitate the timing of the foot to the music!

george
 
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