Strange noise on stopping a note

[Beemer]

Just starting to play my 1957 Hohner Student VM which has been renovated by a pa technician. I'm hearing a strange noise after releasing one or more bass buttons. Here is a recording

Box

app.box.com

Looking for a clue before opening it up or taking it on a 110mile round trip to the restorer.
Ian

 

[Dingo40]

Beemer,
That sounds very like the sound made by a bass reed affected by a curly leather valve in an accordion of that age.
Well, whilst it may be less than perfect, it's not immediately fatal.
I have a similar situation with an F reed in the bass section of a seventy plus years old instrument, which does exactly that at the end of a phrase.
Personally, I'm not bothered and have put up with it for decades now, looking on it as a feature .

 

[JerryPH]

That is internal resonances. Something there is vibrating in a sympathetic frequency based on the low note from the bass. Depending on the quality of that box, that just may be the way things are. I'd call your PA technician before driving 110 miles round trip, let him hear this before you travel.

 

[Vladimir M.]

I also think it's an inner resonance. In my opinion, this is not a defect or a malfunction. In the case of a 65-year-old instrument, this is a tolerable feature, I think.

Best regards, Vladimir

 

[Dingo40]

Playing Beemer's MP3 sound byte, I was reminded of the Seinfeld episode wherein George tries to figure out the significance of the noises recorded on the tape recorder he left running in his briefcase in the boardroom of Susan's foundation.
For many years on local radio there was a serial contest with a cumulative cash prize for guessing the identity of a " mystery sound ". And very popular it was too!.
I wonder what Paul and Jim think of it?

 

[Beemer]

I was prompted to post as the technician had told me he had just rewaxed all reeds, replaced the pads and reglued the plastic valves. I hear a stronger resonance when pulling the bellows. This can be heard in my sound clip.

 

[Dingo40]

You've done well, Beemer. It's kept us busy all day
Well. It's definitely there but can't be a curly leather: so?
Come in Paul and Jim!

 

[debra]

Just starting to play my 1957 Hohner Student VM which has been renovated by a pa technician. I'm hearing a strange noise after releasing one or more bass buttons. ...

What you hear after you release the button is called "growl". The reed that is vibrating as it plays dies not stop vibrating immediately. The growl is quite loud on your bass reed because 1) the new wax creates a strong bond between the reed plate and the reed block so the vibration is carried over well and 2) growl is stronger when the reed itself is not very strong (as in wider and thicker steel would make it stronger) and is weighted down more (with copper or lead) than on stronger reeds. The combination of a reed that will vibrate more and longer without producing a strong sound while playing and the longer growl being transmitted well to the reed block creates what we are hearing.
No need to go back to the technician as there is nothing he can do (without going to extremes like using larger, stronger, better quality reeds and then a new reed block on which the larger reeds will fit, and perhaps more alterations to the accordion to make the larger reed block fit as well).

 

[Dingo40]

All good!

 

[Beemer]

What you hear after you release the button is called "growl". The reed that is vibrating as it plays dies not stop vibrating immediately. The growl is quite loud on your bass reed because 1) the new wax creates a strong bond between the reed plate and the reed block so the vibration is carried over well and 2) growl is stronger when the reed itself is not very strong (as in wider and thicker steel would make it stronger) and is weighted down more (with copper or lead) than on stronger reeds. The combination of a reed that will vibrate more and longer without producing a strong sound while playing and the longer growl being transmitted well to the reed block creates what we are hearing.
No need to go back to the technician as there is nothing he can do (without going to extremes like using larger, stronger, better quality reeds and then a new reed block on which the larger reeds will fit, and perhaps more alterations to the accordion to make the larger reed block fit as well).

'Growl' that is a great description of what I hear. As with all strange issues in life the more it is perceived the greater the interest and possibly concern. I know at my learning stage I should be concentrating on practicing and not with this issue so you have helped me get back on track. Thanks, Ian

 

[John M]

Growl must be a desirable "feature", some my want, as my FR-8X has a volume adjustment for "growl" and "button noise" on the bass side and "valve noise" on the treble side.

John M.

 

[Dingo40]

Growl desirable?
Yes: that's what I like about Jupiter bayans, Dallapé bases and my ancient Busilacchio (no matter how it comes about)
In general, I feel the bulk of off the shelf accordions in general use are pitched far too high, especially in the bass.

 

[JIM D.]

Sounds very much like week plastic valves on your larger bass reeds. The problem can be corrected however.
One solution is to replace the plastic valves on the larger bass reeds with valves with a heavier plastic booster.
Another better solution is to replace the large reed plastic valves with quality leather valves with metal boosters.

 

[Scuromondo]

I find that a bit of growl is not a bad thing. But the decay rate on this example is much longer—probably by a factor of at least 2x—than I would like.

 

[debra]

Growl desirable?
Yes: that's what I like about Jupiter bayans, Dallapé bases and my ancient Busilacchio (no matter how it comes about)
In general, I feel the bulk of off the shelf accordions in general use are pitched far too high, especially in the bass.

The Russian bayans actually do not have very loud or long growl because the bass reeds are strong and large, so they require not very much added weight (compared to Italian reeds). In terms of pitch there is actually no difference between European accordions with E as the lowest bass note and a bayan: both have E1 as the lowest note. But when the E1 reed is only 2/3 the size of a Russian one it does not sound as loud and as a result the higher octaves also playing dominate the overall sound.
The influence of the valves on the growl is small because the it's the pallet closing that cuts off the air flow and then only the vibration of the reed remains. Still, the valves on the older Hohners are not very good. Their leather feels more like cardboard than like leather, and the plastic boosters are vastly inferior to metal boosters. Sadly even expensive new Italian accordions sometimes come with plastic boosters on the bass valves.

 

[Vladimir M.]

Growl in the real practice:

Example:

This cadence uses contra-F (played on standard /Stradella/ bass with 16´+4´):



As we can hear, the vibrations last for a few seconds. Over again. From my point of view, this (growl) is not a problem.

Best regards,
Vladimir

 

[Ffingers]

The monster of a Paolo Soprani 'Super Organ' which I bought recently demonstrates beautifully that "growl" on the very lowest bass reeds, even to the point og them responding harmonically with the lower notes on the treble side.
I queried the seller/technician/tuner of the box about this to be informed that it was quite normal for these Italian made instruments.
Strangely, although it seems loud to me as the player, it barely intrudes into the recordings which I have made for practice purposes.
As I discovered from playing it off my body but on the bench top, the effect hardly travels beyond a couple of feet distant.
( I wish that could be said of the clatter of keys and platters which, for me, spoil many recordings by virtuoso players.)

 

[Ffingers]

Growl in the real practice:

Example:

This cadence uses contra-F (played on standard /Stradella/ bass with 16´+4´):



As we can hear, the vibrations last for a few seconds. Over again. From my point of view, this (growl) is not a problem.

Best regards,
Vladimir

Yes there is a quite discernable 'rattle' at the end there.

 

[debra]

Yes there is a quite discernable 'rattle' at the end there.

That's not what I would call a "rattle". It is plain "growl". A rattle can be caused by the valve flapping against a plastic booster for instance. That would not be desired.

 

[debra]

Growl in the real practice:

Example:

This cadence uses contra-F (played on standard /Stradella/ bass with 16´+4´):



As we can hear, the vibrations last for a few seconds. Over again. From my point of view, this (growl) is not a problem.

Best regards,
Vladimir

This bass block uses an "Umlenkstimmstock" which makes for a much longer resonance chamber. That may contribute to the growl as there is a larger volume of air inside the reed block which offers less "counter-pressure" against the reed that still wants to vibrate despite the pallet being closed.