Stradella 3 note voicings

[stickista]

On a 5 column stradella (3rd, Root, maj, min dom7) with 3 voices per chord, can someone tell me what the normal voicings are?
I took a stab at guessing, but it my guesses seem very root-heavy… way too much unncessary duplication of the root.

eg on the C row…
1: M3rd ; E
2: Root: C
3: Maj: C,E,G
4: Min: C, Eb, G
5: Dom7: C, G, Bb ?

And 2nd, What sort of limitations are there on how each can be voiced?
For example, would asking an accordion maker for something like the

1: E
2: C
3: E,G, A
4: Eb, G, A
5: G, Bb, A (or possibly B,D,F or D,F,Ab)

3rd, What constraints limit the notes that can be triggered from any given chord button?

 

[losthobos]

I get what you're aiming for...but...those fifths and sixths next to each other may not be what you're searching ....and the sixth/flat seventh A/Bb definitely not...gonna clash brutal
Unless you've a secret plan you'd like to share

 

[debra]

Your guess is not entirely correct:
5, Dom7 is actually normally C E Bb on an accordion with a 6th row for diminished and is E G Bb on an accordion without 6th row.
By using this combination the 7 consists of 3 minor thirds (E-G and G-Bb) and can be used as a substitute for the next note's diminished.
Considering Gdim consists of G Bb Db E 3 out of the 4 notes for the Gdim are in the C7 chord.
The limitations of what can be voiced are in the design of the catorcetti (the "rakes") of the bass mechanism. Often there are enough levers on the catorcetti to allow for different chords. I got an old worn-out 80-bass accordion for instance that hat the 7th consisting of all four notes C E G Bb. But as an 80 bass accordion has no 6th row for diminished this made it impossible to play diminished. So I carefully removed the stubs with the base note on each piston to get the 7th consisting of just the two minor thirds.

 

[dak]

I got an old worn-out 80-bass accordion for instance that hat the 7th consisting of all four notes C E G Bb.

German? A Hohner Amati III M I had (48bass, so with a diminished row) also had full seventh chords. I think I also heard of some GDR instruments with that layout. I don't think I've seen other nationalities do that.

 

[debra]

German? A Hohner Amati III M I had (48bass, so with a diminished row) also had full seventh chords. I think I also heard of some GDR instruments with that layout. I don't think I've seen other nationalities do that.

It was a "Bianco Frères". Not German. Not sure whether it is Italian (as "bianco" suggests) or French (as "frères") suttests.

 

[stickista]

I get what you're aiming for...but...those fifths and sixths next to each other may not be what you're searching ....and the sixth/flat seventh A/Bb definitely not...gonna clash brutal
Unless you've a secret plan you'd like to share

Yep, you understand where I’m going with this, and your concerns are exactly why I’m turning to the group mind for input.
The G to A whole step jumped out at me as well when I wrote it so I clearly need to test in the correct range, and consider having the chords voiced in the correct inversions.

But this raises another limitayion in my understanding of how LH stradella is constructed.
It seems there needs to be a gap between the col 1/2 bass nots and the eeds making up the chords, at least an octave higher.
Is there a reference that shows how the reed blocks on a typical 5 column, 12 row stradella would be arranged?

 

[debra]

...
But this raises another limitayion in my understanding of how LH stradella is constructed.
It seems there needs to be a gap between the col 1/2 bass nots and the eeds making up the chords, at least an octave higher.
Is there a reference that shows how the reed blocks on a typical 5 column, 12 row stradella would be arranged?

Easy... A typical Stradella bass side has 5 voices and two rows of pallets.
The row of pallets with the lowest two octaves are used only by the base notes.
The row of pallets with the three sets of higher notes (mostly not really three octaves) are used by base notes and chords. The lever that opens the pallet for the base octaves also lifts the pallet for the chord octaves (but not vice versa).
Typically the lowest two octaves have their octave jump at the same note. The next "octave" has the jump at a different note. The highest two octaves have the same octave jump but different from the middle one.
There are exceptions. Quite a few Hohner accordions have a 4 voice bass (some a 5 voice bass) with the octave jump at the same note in all octaves.
Because the two lowest octaves never play in the chords the chords are always clearly higher than the base notes. But because the lever for the base note pallet pulls the pallet for the chords you cannot avoid having at least one of the higher octaves also playing with the base notes. This is where a convertor instrument is different from a pure Stradella bass: With a convertor accordion the base notes can play with just the two lowest octaves and with a Stradella bass you cannot do this (unless you have for instance a very old Scandalli Super VI with an octave decoupler.

 

[stickista]

Easy... A typical Stradella bass side has 5 voices and two rows of pallets.
The row of pallets with the lowest two octaves are used only by the base notes.
The row of pallets with the three sets of higher notes (mostly not really three octaves) are used by base notes and chords. The lever that opens the pallet for the base octaves also lifts the pallet for the chord octaves (but not vice versa).
Typically the lowest two octaves have their octave jump at the same note. The next "octave" has the jump at a different note. The highest two octaves have the same octave jump but different from the middle one.
There are exceptions. Quite a few Hohner accordions have a 4 voice bass (some a 5 voice bass) with the octave jump at the same note in all octaves.
Because the two lowest octaves never play in the chords the chords are always clearly higher than the base notes. But because the lever for the base note pallet pulls the pallet for the chords you cannot avoid having at least one of the higher octaves also playing with the base notes. This is where a convertor instrument is different from a pure Stradella bass: With a convertor accordion the base notes can play with just the two lowest octaves and with a Stradella bass you cannot do this (unless you have for instance a very old Scandalli Super VI with an octave decoupler.

I suppose I should’ve been less specific, and describe my goal.
That goal is too have rootless major and minor sixth chords on column three and four with the assumption that the root is either going to be provided by the bass or from the right hand if necessary.
The diminished fifth column, would either contain the rootless diminished 7th chord for that row, or possibly that row’s leading tone diminished 7th chord. Eg for the C row the dim col would be playing a B dim chord. I haven’t decided which would be better.

As terry has discerned, the goal is a Barry Harris 6thDim sonority.

This wouldn’t be a modification of an existing instrument, but created from scratch. I am toying with having Thierry Benetoux build a LH side for my RH-only Snooopi Pro.

 

[debra]

I suppose I should’ve been less specific, and describe my goal.
That goal is too have rootless major and minor sixth chords on column three and four with the assumption that the root is either going to be provided by the bass or from the right hand if necessary.
The diminished fifth column, would either contain the rootless diminished 7th chord for that row, or possibly that row’s leading tone diminished 7th chord. Eg for the C row the dim col would be playing a B dim chord. I haven’t decided which would be better.

As terry has discerned, the goal is a Barry Harris 6thDim sonority.

This wouldn’t be a modification of an existing instrument, but created from scratch. I am toying with having Thierry Benetoux build a LH side for my RH-only Snooopi Pro.

Before venturing in this direction I'd first investigate what you can already establish with combined chords.
To get a C chord that contains E G A you can play C major plus A minor and get C E G A.
To get a C chord that contains Eb G A you can play C minor plus rootless F7 and get C Eb G A.
There are many chord combinations that give an interesting result.
The only thing a standard Stradella bass cannot give you is a combination with two major thirds, like C E G#.
Some accordions have been built that have a rootless 7 on the 5th rows and augmented fifth (C E G#) on the 6th row.
It can be a bit of a shock when you expect standard Stradella and get augmented fifth instead of diminished.

 

[stickista]

My biggest concern is that I’d be designing this from a completely academic standpoint at a distance of a couple thousand miles, and with a language barrier. , and my experience with doing that sort of thing has been mixed, and this wouldn’t be an inexpensive endeavor.
But thanks for helping me walk through the thought process

 

[Ventura]

there is a way you might be able to hands on experiment with your idea
with rootless chord combinations

pick up any inexpensive, but playable, mid-level Scandalli that has the
drop out bass mechanism design. Pop out the bass section and you can
look down at the unobstructed bass pallets and springs and pivots..
you will note there is a flat connecting "rod" between the bass and chord rows.
they are held in with spring tension, so just manipulate one side and
catch the connectors as they are released.. save them so you can reverse the
process when you go to resell it someday

now the Bass will only play the chord button chord combination built into
the mechanism, and to add the deep note fundamental yes you WILL need
to press the left hand bass button also (or add it on the right hand) as
that connector arm is no longer there to open the deep note anymore.

it is simply an imperfect work around, but there are still tons of
those little blue and aluminum and similar scandalli's to be had for
the asking and you may find out some things from playing with
your idea this way

 

[losthobos]

@stickista
If you're going to take this path I'd advise just going for two note chords rather than three .. a la CJS.....

 

[stickista]

@stickista
If you're going to take this path I'd advise just going for two note chords rather than three .. a la CJS.....

You may very well be right.
Problem is the instrument I’d be doing it on is 5 column.
But truth be told I think the day as narrated by this thread has brought me back to doubling down on my CBA left hand freebass work. No Stradella system gives me as much versatility.
Fun thought experiment tho’

 

[losthobos]

How is your free bass cba laid out....

 

[dak]

You may very well be right.
Problem is the instrument I’d be doing it on is 5 column.
But truth be told I think the day as narrated by this thread has brought me back to doubling down on my CBA left hand freebass work. No Stradella system gives me as much versatility.

Freebass and (pure) Stradella have some differences.
Pure-Stradella and Free+Stradella differ in that the latter is designed to have a continuous sound quality across the whole range while the former has consistent sound quality throughout a reed bank.

Also Stradella can give you things like 5-octave bass notes and 3-octave chords, making chord voicings/inversions mostly a non-issue. Free bass chords are thinner and more defined.

 

[stickista]

Freebass and (pure) Stradella have some differences.
Pure-Stradella and Free+Stradella differ in that the latter is designed to have a continuous sound quality across the whole range while the former has consistent sound quality throughout a reed bank.

Also Stradella can give you things like 5-octave bass notes and 3-octave chords, making chord voicings/inversions mostly a non-issue. Free bass chords are thinner and more defined.

I’d say that control over the top voice of a chord (voice leading) is a pretty significant issue, and indeed one of the reasons accordion has a bit of a reputation for a (searching for a non judgmental term here) predictable sound.
My bigger problem with free bass accordions is that the tiny buttons are really sub-optimal for precision. The only instruments other than my Geuns CBA hybrid bandoneon that have proper bass-side buttons is the Fistalia Ergo, which is an unaffordable instrument for my purposes at over $15k

Fisitalia Ergo English text

Fisitalia Ergo English text, Castelfidardo, Italy

www.accordions.com