Stolen Accordion?

[MikeS]

I just replied to an ad on Craig's List for a deal on an Italian accordion that looks too good to be true. I am wondering what is the right thing to do next in this situation to find out if it stolen or not. It's not listed by the owner. Don't know if I could live with it not knowing.
Mike

 

[JIM D.]

Post it here, I'll check it out .
Or send me a PM.

 

[debra]

Indeed post a link to the ad. Too hard to find anything on Craigs List without much more specific information.
With the rise of localized marketplaces people cannot really sell a stolen accordion in an area nearby.
There was a recent theft of a professional conservatory Pigini PA in the Netherlands. It is unlikely that this will come for sale in the Netherlands, but it will probably go to another country, might as well be Canada...
There have been some burglaries even in shops. Check out http://www.theaccordionshop.co.uk/news/stolen-accordions/ to see if the accordion on offer might be one from the long list of instruments stolen from this accordion shop.
Another list of stolen accordions is http://www.accordions.com/stolen_index.aspx and Im sure you can find more reports of theft if you want to explore the world of accordion theft even further...

 

[MikeS]

Thanks Jim and Paul . This case is now closed because my appointment to see it was cancelled last night because the bugger sold it. I am assuming someone back in the pack made him an offer that he could not refuse. From what I have seen (by the number of watching on eBay). there is a big demand for a good 80 bass. This was a 3 voice Mignon Accordiola for 200.00 37 treble keys. 2 bass switches.

 

[debra]

...This was a 3 voice Mignon Accordiola for 200.00 37 treble keys. 2 bass switches.

Right. $200 for an old 3 voice Accordiola is a good price, but not a killer price indicative of a stolen instrument. (Of course all types of accordions get stolen so a sale by someone who does not play and already says he is not the owner is always a bit fishy).

Good luck finding another instrument. There are many more 3 voice 37 key instruments on the market. Personally I would recommend looking for a Hohner Verdi II N which you wont find for $200 (or even 200 euro) but this is a very robust type of instrument, used a lot even by professionals who need an indestructible and 100% reliable stage instrument.

 

[Auser]

I am assuming someone back in the pack made him an offer that he could not refuse.

In my opinion, you cannot infer that an accordion is stolen by it`s price.
A person selling the accordion, is not going to tell you if it`s stolen, and is taking all the risk just by posting it, not by selling.
He will post a normal price, just as if it was a legit ownership accordion.
You aren`t his hood-buddy that can get a special channel for purchasing stolen goods for a reduced price.
For him your`e just a random buyer, it could be anyone and no reason to reduce the price for something which shouldn`t be noticed (stolen), it`d only make it more suspicious and attract unneeded attention (like you just did notice).

From my experience cheap accordions (or anything else) are usually :

1. Problematic - the item itself is not in good condition [usually the case]
2. Sold by people who desperately need money (here & now !)
3. Sold by people who don`t know it`s true value, bad evaluators, naive...etc

No #01 is the most common, as 2-3 are not only rare, but also are being purchased shortly.
As a knowledgeable buyer examines the item (2-3), he will quickly understand that he found a bargain and snatch buy it.

I`ve seen a 3 voice Bugari accordion, which usually costs 1,000 EUR in my area, sold for 250 EUR, because the seller had no idea what was it`s market price, and couldn`t differentiate between high-Q and low-Q accordions.

 

[debra]

The first sign that an accordion on offer is "fishy" is not so much the price but is that the "owner" does not play, did not inherit it from a relative who plays (as can demonstrated for instance through pictures) but is "selling for a friend".

Occasionally an instrument may be sold legitimately by someone who either does not know the value or who will accept a low price because he needs money (and some money is better than no money).

Sadly there is no simple recipe to distinguish legitimate from fishy deals. And by staying on the safe side one may miss a really good legitimate deal...

 

[donn]

Around here, I expect it's often a surviving member of the player's family.

 

[debra]

Around here, I expect its often a surviving member of the players family.

With loving pictures of the player and his instrument is what I would then expect.

 

[donn]

Never that, nor even usually any discussion of the departed. I just have the impression that not many of the owners of decent quality accordions of yesteryear are still able to play them for a prospective buyer or discuss their qualities and current value. The yesteryear in question being over half a century ago, they're dead, and so may be reasonably be excused from this duty.

 

[debra]

The post with the most likely answer seems to have been lost in a forum move.
Stolen instruments are unlikely to be offered on-line because on-line means the whole world can see it. But stolen instruments may well move to eastern Europe or even further east from where they are stolen. I believe that is where stolen cars go to (although the stolen car business is sometimes more complicated involving stealing an expensive car and buying a wreck of the same model so as to have a completely legit vin number to place on the stolen car).

 

[Auser]

The post with the most likely answer seems to have been lost in a forum move.

Hi Paul, from the text I believe you mean this one ( luckily I saved my posts on a text file, just in case) :

So what are you afraid of Donn ?
That it`d be a stolen one ?

What chance there is that someone would be stupid enough to post a stolen item and increase chances of getting caught. Also, people who steal are usually not very patient for getting money (otherwise they`ll work and not steal), so they would rather sell it for less immediately than wait for a better catch, and the dealer won`t take the risk of getting caught.
I think it`s not a good deal to steal an accordion, the market is quite small and very hard to sell something like that without going online (which is risky). A burglar can carry a very limited amount of goods, and would rather pick something else.

In the break-ins that happened in The Accordion Shop in the UK, only the best and most valuable accordions were stolen.
It was an organized gang that came with a pickup truck and loaded the best goods. The staff there told me it probably went to eastern Europe, far away and where people would pay less, even if suspicious, as the differences in price are great (f.e. the average monthly salary in Ukraine is now 200$ (was 430$ before the fighting), imagine what difference would it make to buy an item for 6 monthly salaries, rather than 12 monthly salaries, one has to work half a year for the difference, so it makes it very appealing and moralities might be more easily set aside). That`s the way they do it.

I could hardly imagine someone breaking in the US breaking into a house, taking a hard-to-sell item and then posting it online (or the dealer posting it and taking the risk).

Sometimes you might have intuition that something is wrong and be right, but not any case of `someone selling for` is a scam or stolen goods.

 

[debra]

Thanks Auser, that was indeed what I was referring to. Eastern Europe or Russia are likely markets, maybe even China. I can imagine very well that players with an old bugger of a bayan can easily be persuaded to pay what to them is a fair chunk of money but what is still only a fraction of the real cost to get a truly nice Italian accordion.

 

[JerryPH]

The fact is that yes, there are actually people stupid enough to sell stolen articles on the net. Not so surprisingly, law enforcement is remarkably lax (at least it is here in North America), for certain things and in those cases, the people most likely to find it are the people from whom it was stolen or someone within their circle. For example, the chances of finding a stolen Mercedes online is much greater than finding a stolen accordion... I would think.

 

[donn]

So what are you afraid of Donn ?
That it`d be a stolen one ?
...
but not any case of `someone selling for` is a scam or stolen goods.

Just want to note, that was indeed more or less my point. Rather, I think when it comes to older accordions online, it's the common case - even if the player is still around, the accordion may have ceased to be a major focus of interest, and some acquaintance or family member has experience with craigslist or ebay.

I believe someone else was concerned about the stolen goods possibility.

 

[Auser]

The fact is that yes, there are actually people stupid enough to sell stolen articles on the net. Not so surprisingly, law enforcement is remarkably lax (at least it is here in North America), for certain things and in those cases, the people most likely to find it are the people from whom it was stolen or someone within their circle. For example, the chances of finding a stolen Mercedes online is much greater than finding a stolen accordion... I would think.

Interesting, everybody always complain about their own X country`s law enforcement, and then give example of the good system in country Y, while in country Y they complain about their`s and give the example of country X. The Grass is Always Greener on the Other Side. I though US police is very effective and professional.

Considering the Mercedes, I`d think the opposite. There are 180 million passenger vehicles in the US, most people have a car, and most people change it (sell and buy) every couple of years.
I believe there are no more than several million accordions in the US, this instrument is not very popular (not in top 10 at least) and many of those are made since the 1970`s, not like cars. There are however no less makers and models than contemporary vehicles, and there`s not a great chance of finding more than one accordion at a time, which looks the same as the other (make, model, years, regs, color, minor modifications), which you can`t say about cars. There are always many cars that look almost the same, unless it`s a rare Ferrari or something.
Some people indeed might be stupid enough to sell online, but I think it`s quite rare.

 

[Auser]

Rather, I think when it comes to older accordions online, its the common case - even if the player is still around, the accordion may have ceased to be a major focus of interest, and some acquaintance or family member has experience with craigslist or ebay.

I believe someone else was concerned about the stolen goods possibility.

Exactly what I believe too.

I mistakenly thought you were the concerned buyer.

 

[MikeS]

As I was the concerned buyer on this post I should elaborated a bit on why my red flag went up. It did not happen when I first saw the post as I thought he could be selling for a family member. It was after I responded to the add asking him to measure the treble keyboard width giving him explicit instructions.
This was his reply
(No clue buddy. It's a steal at $200. That's all I know! If you want to have a look then text me at xxx)
so I set up a appointment to view the next day as I am out of town a ways. Then I thought that this guy could easily be a fence for some drug addict in dire need of his next fix who unloads it for 50.00 and I should get some advice from the experts here before I go and buy it. Vancouver B.C is the drug Capitol of Canada with quite a few break and enters happening.
He sent me an email that it was sold 13 hours after he first posted it so I still think it was stolen goods that he wanted to get rid of in a hell of a hurry and am glad I did not get it.
I know now I should have backed out when I got his reply for my simple request to measure the keyboard. Sorry for any confusion.

 

[Auser]

(No clue buddy. Its a steal at $200. Thats all I know! If you want to have a look then text me at xxx)
Vancouver B.C is the drug Capitol of Canada with quite a few break and enters happening.

Well, if so, it really sounds like it could be a stolen one. True drug addicts care about nothing, being caught or not doesn`t bother them too much, and they anyway don`t think much before acting (otherwise they won`t be drug addicts).
A drug addict might steal anything, even for 50$ or less, even with high risk, just to get him closer to his next `meal`.

Wish you a good buying experience and a good accordion for the buck.

I hope this discussion will be useful for people finding it, even if just to consider what might be wrong with strange offers or too low-priced accordions.

 

[donn]

And it's interesting to me for reasons that have not so much to do with accordions, because here in Seattle 150 miles to the south, there's overwhelming political momentum towards Vancouver's drug policies. I guess we shall see. We already have a significant issue with opiate addicts and the more or less inevitable petty crime consequences. We will see, I guess. But as I think has already been said, I wouldn't expect to see a lot of stolen accordions on the market, they tend to focus on what they know, so if you have an astrolabe, accordion, alligator etc., I wouldn't worry too much.