Starting with buttons AND piano

[Prana]

Hi all

I'm an elderly newbie currently living half-time in England and half in France. I have no explanation for why I suddenly became interested in accordions, but it happened. So I bought a little 12-bass piano Pigini in the UK six months ago, mainly just to see whether I could persuade my hands to actually do different things at the same time (I play flute and saxophone, but never learned piano). Back in France and getting ahead of myself, I found 12 basses limiting and discovered someone in Lyon who rents out bigger boxes by the month. But actually only CBAs. I thought "why not?", and for the past month have been trying to get to grips with a - to me - very scary Crucianelli 3-row 60-bass. However, I keep going back to the piano box and trying to figure out which I prefer.

I'm sure that there are multiple threads here about the different merits of piano and button RHs. On my experience so far, for a beginner the piano keyboard is easier to understand (even if you're not a pianist, if you play music you probably have a basic knowledge), more forgiving of sloppy finger placement, and easier on the hand: I find CBA 5-finger thumb-under technique for scales as promoted by Manu Maugain superior to other fingerings, but a serious strain on the thumb joints compared to piano keyboard scales. However I get the feeling that it will eventually be easier to be quick and dextrous on the CBA - if I ever get there. And I get a contrarian pleasure from the "what the hell is that?" reactions of friends and family.

My question, however, is about the comparative suitability of the two systems for different types of music. Opinions I've seen tend to cluster around "really no difference", but a few say CBA is marginally more suitable for classic French musette (often written by button accordionists?) and jazz (patterns for improvisation in different keys are easier to grasp on the CBA?). I'm not interested in classical (on this instrument), fond of folk and blues - and am happy to ignore the purists who claim English, French, Cajun and Irish folk can only be properly played on diatonics - but jazz would be a preferred area. Once I've managed to conquer Frère Jacques, that is.

Any thoughts on suitability before I commit myself to one side or the other?

 

[TomBR]

Three previous discussions for a start!

Chromatic vs. Piano
https://www.accordionists.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4781[/url]

Button vs Piano
https://www.accordionists.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1196[/url]

Piano or cromatic accordion?
https://www.accordionists.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5125[/url]


Tom

 

[TomBR]

Hi Prana
How are you getting on. As youll have seen people have talked quite a lot about the two systems quite recently, but are usually ready to discuss new aspects of the question.

Did looking back at previous discussions give the sort of answers you were looking for, or prompt any supplementary questions?
As to suitability for genres, I think its pretty clear that both systems are suitable for music to a far higher level than most of us will ever reach. Its much more about the player.

You mention thumb-under. There was an extensive discussion of thumb for CBA here - you may have already found it
https://www.accordionists.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=3781[/url]
I guess one could say that CBA offers a real possibility of not using the thumb, and there are plenty that play that way. PA without thumb - almost never.

As to prejudice in favour of diatonics in some genres - a little three row button box might sneak under the radar - Bernard Loffet makes some little boxes than would leave most people guessing. In reality Id have thought that in most situations you just have to reassure people. Turn up at an Irish session with a big pianobox and youll need to show you can be trusted to control it! If youre barred without a trial, would you want to play with those people anyway?

Given your English/French connections either PA or C-system CBA should be easily available to you so that makes life easier.

An inspiring clip from Marc Berthoumieux? On something different from a typical jazz CBA

Good luck on the journey (I think we all know theres no there!)
Tom

 

[donn]

more forgiving of sloppy finger placement, and easier on the hand: I find CBA 5-finger thumb-under technique for scales as promoted by Manu Maugain superior to other fingerings, but a serious strain on the thumb joints compared to piano keyboard scales. However I get the feeling that it will eventually be easier to be quick and dextrous on the CBA - if I ever get there. And I get a contrarian pleasure from the "what the hell is that?" reactions of friends and family.

That's the main thing - if one must be different, then it's CBA.

I have a theory that the piano keyboard is not just less exacting about placement - because you can only go wrong in one dimension, not two - the raised black keys also provide a tactile cue to placement, that's lacking with buttons that all feel the same. But obviously it's easier to reach buttons, which makes up for a lot of minor theoretical disadvantages.

I sure wouldn't adopt an uncomfortable technique for the sake of possibly greater dexterity twenty years down the road, when many fabulous players get by without it. I'm not a student of such things, but what I see often is the thumb used occasionally, not frequently. I don't know if those players learn to play without the thumb, and then add it as an intermediate-advanced technique, but it seems very plausible that one might do it that way.

 

[debra]

I would not recommend trying to keep up both PA and CBA. You seem to lean to CBA and that's fine. I do recognize that "what the hell is that" type of reaction that I sometimes get from people in the public when I play in an orchestra that has mostly PA players. Never mind that. You can easily show them that on the inside the instruments can be just the same but the keyboard is much more compact so it lets you do things (like play notes together that are two octaves apart) that you cannot do on a PA.
My wife and I both made the switch from PA to CBA 10 years ago and would never go back. Many professional PA players I know would recommend new beginners to start on CBA. (That's because they have seen what their colleagues can do on CBA that they cannot do on PA.)

 

[Stephen Hawkins]

Hello Prana,

Firstly, and most importantly, welcome to the forum.

The debate you have begun on this thread is a very familiar one on this forum, and is unlikely to be resolved any time soon. Both of the systems you have mentioned have their dedicated followers, few of whom are likely change horses mid-stream.

Personally, and for what it's worth, I would stick with the little 12 Bass until I had fully explored its limits. The other road may lead to confusion, and you may be surprised at the repertoire you are able to build on this diminutive instrument.

You will, of course, hit the buffers with a 12 Bass, but it will give you the grounding you need to advance.

The choice is entirely yours to make but, at this stage, learning to play two very different systems will most certainly hinder your progress.

Kind Regards,

Stephen.

 

[Prana]

Wow, thanks to everyone for an amazing variety of encouragement and useful information. Id seen some of the CBA/PA threads, but hadnt found all of them. Having both types available for a while enables me to work out which feels best technically and anatomically.

But the question particularly in my mind, which doesnt seem to be covered much in the threads, is whether theres a natural affinity between styles of music and keyboard layout - not really relevant at my current stage, but if there is, it would be nice to be aware of it before committing to one or the other. The apparent scarcity of high-level PA jazz artists may tell a story, and my current super-hero Christian Bakanic (eg <YOUTUBE id=7sVXfvEelLs url=>)</YOUTUBE> is definitely CBA. I hope to see him in Vienna next month. Berthomieux was unknown to me, so thanks for that.

The Loffet chromatic box is certainly attractive, though theres advice from Florence Glorion - perhaps a little self-interested - not to go there: http://diouflo.com/francais/questions_reponses_chroma.php

Again, many thanks to all.

 

[Anyanka]

I have found the CBA more amenable for everything that I've tried (folk, Eastern, French dance music,a little bit of jazz, improvisation). In my opinion, the difference is not in the type of music that you play but in how you 'think' music. The CBA seems to be better for an intuitive approach, whereas the PA suits a more linear/analytical mind. But I might be wrong about that!

I really like the piece in your video, by the way! I'll have to listen to some more of his work.

 

[Anyanka]

I have found the CBA more amenable for everything that Ive tried (folk, Eastern, French dance music, a little bit of jazz, improvisation). In my opinion, the difference is not in the type of music that you play but in how you think music. The CBA seems to be better for an intuitive approach, whereas the PA suits a more linear/analytical mind. But I might be wrong about that!

I really like the piece in your video, by the way! Ill have to listen to some more of his work.

 

[Anyanka]

I have found the CBA more amenable for everything that Ive tried (folk, Eastern European, French dance music, a little bit of jazz, improvisation). In my opinion, the difference is not in the type of music that you play but in how you think music. The CBA seems to be better for an intuitive approach, whereas the PA suits a more linear/analytical mind. But I might be wrong about that!

I really like the piece in your video, by the way! Ill have to listen to some more of his work.

 

[TomBR]

.... The CBA seems to be better for an intuitive approach, whereas the PA suits a more linear/analytical mind. But I might be wrong about that!
.......

It was noticeable at the Chromatic Rally a few weeks ago that almost everyone there approached the CBA keyboard in a somewhat different way! To my mind thats an indication of the robustness of the system. On the other hand, with piano keyboard one has centuries of recognised technique to build on, and some people may be more comfortable with that.