Slow reeds

[Hilobox]

Aloha, I just joined. I have a 2013 Hohner Bravo III 72 (Chinese) with two clarinet (M) reeds in the second octave, D and F, weak only on compression. They sound weakly or not at all, and then only when the bellows are strongly closed. The reeds are on the outside of the reed block. How do I fix them or even tell what is wrong? Initially they were fine when I lived in Utah, but not here in Hawaii. No visible rust. I would greatly appreciate your advice. There is also uneven tremolo on two other notes, one fast and one slow but I am guessing that is a tuning problem. Is that right? Mahalo.

 

[Dingo40]

There are several members very knowledgeable regarding the tuning and voicing of reeds. I'm sure they will advise you soon.
In my very limited experience, FWIW,
it may be the reeds affected with a sounding problem are experiencing voicing issues?

 

[debra]

Sometimes different problems can cause the same audible effect...
When the valve next to the note you play (on push) is missing or stays open for some reason then that note will have more trouble starting and will sound weak, especially with lower notes. (Really high notes need the adjacent reed to not have a valve in order to start.) A side-effect of such missing valve is also that the note will sound too high.
Another cause for notes having starting and weakness problems is voicing (opening between reed and reed plate) but the voicing does not quickly change when you just play, so moving from Utah to Hawaii should not have affected it.
Uneven tremolo is often a tuning issue, but here again, when the valve next to the reed has fallen off the reed will play too high, so when this happens with tremolo the tremolo will become faster or slower depending on which of the two voices has had the valve fall off.

 

[Hilobox]

Thank you so much for the invaluable information! I will examine the valves closely as suggested, and try to learn more about proper voicing.

 

[Hilobox]

Sometimes different problems can cause the same audible effect...
When the valve next to the note you play (on push) is missing or stays open for some reason then that note will have more trouble starting and will sound weak, especially with lower notes. (Really high notes need the adjacent reed to not have a valve in order to start.) A side-effect of such missing valve is also that the note will sound too high.
Another cause for notes having starting and weakness problems is voicing (opening between reed and reed plate) but the voicing does not quickly change when you just play, so moving from Utah to Hawaii should not have affected it.
Uneven tremolo is often a tuning issue, but here again, when the valve next to the reed has fallen off the reed will play too high, so when this happens with tremolo the tremolo will become faster or slower depending on which of the two voices has had the valve fall off.

Paul, I removed the affected treble reed block and inspected the voicing as best as I could. When I reinstalled the block and seated it, first tightening down the clamps at both ends, I found that the brace to the adjacent block was off by 1/2 the width of the attaching screw. Whether due to warping or manufacturing error I don’t know. I have at least temporarily left the brace off, and the weak sounding of the two reeds has improved enough to be useable. Again, thank you from the other side of the world. Richard.

 

[debra]

Paul, I removed the affected treble reed block and inspected the voicing as best as I could. When I reinstalled the block and seated it, first tightening down the clamps at both ends, I found that the brace to the adjacent block was off by 1/2 the width of the attaching screw. Whether due to warping or manufacturing error I don’t know. I have at least temporarily left the brace off, and the weak sounding of the two reeds has improved enough to be useable. Again, thank you from the other side of the world. Richard.

The "brace" (or "bridge" as some people call it) connects the blocks so reduce internal vibrations. It should help to obtain a cleaner sound, but of course it should fit properly. Something must not be right. Maybe you can post a few pictures? When the brace is present versus absent the tuning also changes, which should be most noticeable in the tremolo. I'm assuming the brace was present when you opened up the accordion? Then it should also fit again if the reed blocks are put back exactly as they were. When reed blocks warp over time it is upwards or downwards (so the bottom isn't 100% flat any more), and not sideways (so the brace in the middle wouldn't fit).

 

[Hilobox]

The "brace" (or "bridge" as some people call it) connects the blocks so reduce internal vibrations. It should help to obtain a cleaner sound, but of course it should fit properly. Something must not be right. Maybe you can post a few pictures? When the brace is present versus absent the tuning also changes, which should be most noticeable in the tremolo. I'm assuming the brace was present when you opened up the accordion? Then it should also fit again if the reed blocks are put back exactly as they were. When reed blocks warp over time it is upwards or downwards (so the bottom isn't 100% flat any more), and not sideways (so the brace in the middle wouldn't fit).

Thank you Paul. I will open it up again, a good rainy day project. It’s Hilo, ergo it’s raining. Richard

 

[debra]

Thank you Paul. I will open it up again, a good rainy day project. It’s Hilo, ergo it’s raining. Richard

When I was in/around Hilo (just one day) the weather was actually nice. I heard about it raining "all the time" (which explains why it's so green) but a day without rain does exist! And earlier, when we arrived at Kona International airport, where it "never rains" everyone else's luggage got soaked as we had a downpour... (our luggage did not get soaked because it was still sitting in Honolulu airport...)
So I know quite well that it won't take long for that rainy day to come!

 

[Hilobox]

When I was in/around Hilo (just one day) the weather was actually nice. I heard about it raining "all the time" (which explains why it's so green) but a day without rain does exist! And earlier, when we arrived at Kona International airport, where it "never rains" everyone else's luggage got soaked as we had a downpour... (our luggage did not get soaked because it was still sitting in Honolulu airport...)
So I know quite well that it won't take long for that rainy day to come!

Yes, it does not really rain all the time, but enough that this side of the island is green. It is also the “quiet side”, as tourism is less dominant. And your help has certainly earned you a night’s stay in our home; we have three guest rooms, occupied only by beds and accordions (and typewriters I restored)—except during Thanksgiving, as we are hoping for visiting family. Oh, yes, I reinstalled the offending treble block, this time using the best practice of fitting all the screws loosely and tightening them slowly in rotation. One note had indeed become flat, and now is resolved. Two musette reeds are still off causing rapid tremolo. That’s for another day, though. At least I enjoy playing it again. Typewriters and accordions share their complexity, but the former is far less subtle than the latter. I respect your knowledge greatly. Richard

 

[debra]

... I reinstalled the offending treble block, this time using the best practice of fitting all the screws loosely and tightening them slowly in rotation. One note had indeed become flat, and now is resolved. Two musette reeds are still off causing rapid tremolo. That’s for another day, though. At least I enjoy playing it again. Typewriters and accordions share their complexity, but the former is far less subtle than the latter. I respect your knowledge greatly. Richard

When reed blocks are tightened with screws (or bolts), always stop when you think they are secure enough to have a good seal. When you overtighten you may be causing friction in the register sliders underneath (and registers may then fail to switch). When checking valves it's hard to look inside the reed block to see whether the valves are also ok inside. A flashlight may help. Sometimes valves get stuck open and then the reed on pull will play too high. Sometimes the inside valve does not open properly (gets stuck either at the end or against the side wall of the resonance chamber) and then the reed on push will play weakly and too low.

 

[Hilobox]

Sometimes different problems can cause the same audible effect...
When the valve next to the note you play (on push) is missing or stays open for some reason then that note will have more trouble starting and will sound weak, especially with lower notes. (Really high notes need the adjacent reed to not have a valve in order to start.) A side-effect of such missing valve is also that the note will sound too high.
Another cause for notes having starting and weakness problems is voicing (opening between reed and reed plate) but the voicing does not quickly change when you just play, so moving from Utah to Hawaii should not have affected it.
Uneven tremolo is often a tuning issue, but here again, when the valve next to the reed has fallen off the reed will play too high, so when this happens with tremolo the tremolo will become faster or slower depending on which of the two voices has had the valve fall off.

Paul, how do I see and diagnose a valve that is not closing properly when it is on the inside of the block? And if it is bad or detached, how do I replace it? Does the reed plate have to come off? I have never done that, but I do have wax from Hohner. Many thanks, Richard

 

[debra]

Paul, how do I see and diagnose a valve that is not closing properly when it is on the inside of the block? And if it is bad or detached, how do I replace it? Does the reed plate have to come off? I have never done that, but I do have wax from Hohner. Many thanks, Richard

When you lift the outside reed a little bit with a feeler (I call it a "pinger") with the reed block (with the right note) on a tuning table you can see through the tiny gap between the reed and the reed plate whether the valve is opening and closing as you operate the bellows. This is very hard on the nowadays popular hand-operated tuning bellows but is easier on a foot-operated bellows.
If a valve is bad, loose or badly placed you can replace it without removing the reed plate. It requires a flashlight to look inside the resonance chamber, tweezers to hold a corner of the new valve, a small drop of glue (on the valve, at the "base") and a lot of precision and patience.
When I have to do a valve replacement "on the go" I do it this way. When in my workshop I just remove the reed plate, replace the valve and then wax the reed plate back in.

 

[Hilobox]

When you lift the outside reed a little bit with a feeler (I call it a "pinger") with the reed block (with the right note) on a tuning table you can see through the tiny gap between the reed and the reed plate whether the valve is opening and closing as you operate the bellows. This is very hard on the nowadays popular hand-operated tuning bellows but is easier on a foot-operated bellows.
If a valve is bad, loose or badly placed you can replace it without removing the reed plate. It requires a flashlight to look inside the resonance chamber, tweezers to hold a corner of the new valve, a small drop of glue (on the valve, at the "base") and a lot of precision and patience.
When I have to do a valve replacement "on the go" I do it this way. When in my workshop I just remove the reed plate, replace the valve and then wax the reed plate back in.

Mahalo..bedankt! Es tut mir Leid, ich kann nur English, Deutsch und ein bißchen Hawaiian verstehen, aber kein Niederländisch. You have no idea how much I appreciate your help. You are a jewel. I think I can handle things, since I also am into model trains which can have incredibly small parts. Thank you again and aloha, Richard

 

[debra]

Mahalo..bedankt! Es tut mir Leid, ich kann nur English, Deutsch und ein bißchen Hawaiian verstehen, aber kein Niederländisch. You have no idea how much I appreciate your help. You are a jewel. I think I can handle things, since I also am into model trains which can have incredibly small parts. Thank you again and aloha, Richard

When you place a valve on the inside the two things to watch out for are that it doesn't hit the side wall of the resonance chamber (it will be blocked) and that it is the right length (so it closes off the hole in the reed plate but doesn't hit the far end of the resonance chamber. (Of course you should always check whether it doesn't touch the reed next to it, but that's very clear to see.)
On a personal note: no knowledge of Dutch (Niederländisch) is needed to do accordion repair. Knowledge of Italian on the other hand is highly recommended.

 

[Hilobox]

When you place a valve on the inside the two things to watch out for are that it doesn't hit the side wall of the resonance chamber (it will be blocked) and that it is the right length (so it closes off the hole in the reed plate but doesn't hit the far end of the resonance chamber. (Of course you should always check whether it doesn't touch the reed next to it, but that's very clear to see.)
On a personal note: no knowledge of Dutch (Niederländisch) is needed to do accordion repair. Knowledge of Italian on the other hand is highly recommended.

Paul, I got brave and found my hitherto unused block of genuine Hohner reed wax. Now I will remove the affected reeds and get down to business. In the meantime a visual pun which only this group may understand.

 

[debra]

Not sure that the visual pun is, but I see in the background that it's sunny. I would leave this job for a rainy day. You get many of these...

 

[Dingo40]

I don't get it either!?

 

[Hilobox]

I don't get it either!?

Sorry to everyone. Some how when I found my block of wax, I thought I could “wax lyrical”. Then the feeling past, that is, it waned, as in the moon waxing and waning. Somehow that led to “wax and wine” : work on the reeds, followed by a glass of the stuff. Again, I apologize. It just happens when you get old, as we humans, unlike wine, do not improve with age. Have a wonderful weekend. And yes, Paul, it rains nearly every day, along with some sun here and there. It has also been slightly cooler this summer, contrary to much of the country. On another note (sorry again) I’ve had my Marchesa for a week now, and can’t get over the dynamic range. I am really pleased. Now I see why Hohner became so popular before the Chinese connection and my Bravo III. Aloha kakou (all).

 

[Dingo40]

Hilobox,
I see it now!
All good!
I should have had a couple of glasses myself and it would have come to me!

 

[debra]

Hilobox,
I see it now!
All good!
I should have had a couple of glasses myself and it would have come to me!

A tremor caused by drinking, and waxing the narrow space between two reed plates... not a good mix!
But Hilobox suggests to drink *after* waxing. That should be fine. You start noticing small imperfections less after a couple of glasses.