reliable accordion

[VMaccordion]

I want to ask which brand and or model would you suggest as a used reliable accordion for long hours of playing. Lets say I play 5 to 10 hours a day. It needs to have at least 96 basses. Sound quality, number of reeds etc. has lower priority. First of all I don't want to repair it every week.

 

[Dingo40]

VM,

How old? 
What's the budget?
PA/ Bayan/ or CBA?
If CBA, 3, 4 or 5 row?
Your musical genre?
Waxed or pinned?
Acoustic/ electronic/ mixed?
Bases. Stradella/converter/freebase/ C griff/ B griff/Belgian/ Finnish/ other?
Two/three/ four/ five voice?
Your age group? (Teenage/employed/retired)?
Maximum weight?(instrument)
Just some of the considerations. :huh:
Oils aint oils!

Five to ten hours/ day?
(Unless you're living by yourself in a desert, you'll either need a padded soundproofed room, or an electronic with earphones 
Are you planning a professional musical career ? :huh:

Are you working with a teacher?

What's their opinion?

 

[VMaccordion]

The question was about piano accordion. It can be really old even 50 years old. If it is in working condition it's fine. Number of voices doesn't matter. Maximum weight 13 kg. I'm 40 years old. I have Weltmeister S5 in perfect condition. But I don't want to use it for my crazy practice test days. For example i tried to learn to play right hand vibrato and after few days i have damaged one of keys. It stopped bouncing. I don't want to damage good accordion. I am not going to play 5-10 hours every day. But I tried several days to play for more than 10 hours until I almost felt asleep playing accordion. I loved that feeling and pain in my shoulders because of playing too much. And I decided that during my vacation I would like to make marathon something like 1 month of 10 hours a day. Don't know if it can be fulfilled. Later i won't be playing so many hours. Maybe I'll fed up and stop playing at all. So I'm asking about accordion model which can have a chance to withstand my marathon. Or even if it won't withstand i don't want to worry too much and i can just get other old accordion to replace it.

 

[Glug]

I'm going to put in a vote for Hohner Lucia or similar: Hohner 'Atlantic build' is Lucia, Pirola (narrow keys), and Atlantic models.

I play a cheap 1959 Lucia IV P (LMMH 37/96 8.4kg+straps) which I've repaired myself, they're very easy to work on.
Nothing has broken in 2 years, but I don't usually play for more than 1 hour per day.

 

[debra]

When you play between 5 and 10 hours a day no accordion is going to be very reliable. You won't need to repair a good accordion every week, but reeds do suffer from metal fatigue after playing long (and strong). Professionals (and I mean professional performers, not teachers) must always be prepared for the odd reed to break, either while practicing or even during a concert. Some can even repair a broken reed on a bayan reed plate (meaning tongue needs to be replaced and then tuned whereas on an accordion you just replace a reed plate and then tune).
The rest of the mechanics can be very reliable and last for decades, but playing is what wears out the reeds.

 

[Dingo40]

VM,

Be wary!
Have you heard of RSI?
After ten hours a day for a week, you may find more than the accordion needing  repairs!

 

[VMaccordion]

Debra I know that doesn't exist 100% reliable accordions especially used ones, but there are some brands which tend to have much more problems and problems occur more frequently that for others.
Dingo40 I don't know what RSI stands for, but i assume that I might have to repair my brains

 

[Dingo40]

VM,

[font=Roboto, HelveticaNeue, Arial, sans-serif]RSI: repetitive strain injury [/font]

Examples: Tennis Elbow, Achilles Tendon soreness, Rotor Cuff soreness.

[font=Roboto, HelveticaNeue, Arial, sans-serif]Description[/font]
[font=Roboto, HelveticaNeue, Arial, sans-serif]A term used to describe damage and pain caused by repetitive movement and overuse.
Repetitive strain injury impacts muscles, nerves, ligaments and tendons. These types of injuries can be caused by improper technique or overuse through work, sport (eg pitching baseball, serving in tennis ), training , performing.[/font]

[font=Roboto, HelveticaNeue, Arial, sans-serif]Five to ten hours practicing the accordion is almost guaranteed to cause it   [/font]

[font=Roboto, HelveticaNeue, Arial, sans-serif]See here:[/font]

[font=Roboto, HelveticaNeue, Arial, sans-serif]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repetitive_strain_injury[/font]

 

[Thomas N]

Get a Roland FR-4X digital. It's light (20 pounds), pop the headphones in, and if you are playing up to 10 hours a day you can take it very easy on the bellows action and conserve energy.

Recharge each night for your next marathon session.

I'm 50 and in very good shape physically. I couldn't play my acoustic accordion for five hours a day without collapsing from exhaustion. Just a couple hours on my FR-8X is tiring and I run 6 miles every day! (maybe that's why it's tiring!)

 

[debra]

People collapsing from too much playing are not likely using a smaller lightweight accordion. I started having problems with my left shoulder not long after I started playing an 18kg Hohner Artiste XS. Part of it is technique (I can now play it without problems, but not for several hours a day).
Now that we understand that no accordion is perfectly reliable, especially because reeds can break if you play very intensively for many hours a day, we can look at some differences in reliability...
Accordions made in China are not recommended. I would even not recommend them when they are from Hohner or other names that suggest good quality... because the Chinese steel is not that good. People have experienced for instance that springs in keyboard or bass mechanisms break more often on the Hohners made in China than the same models when they were still made in Germany.
When you get an accordion that's about 20 years old (anything between 15 and 25 years or thereabout, because newer may be too expensive and older may be worn out too much) your best bet is to go for a good Italian brand. With a used Bugari for instance you can hardly go wrong. Pigini or Borsini for instance may be a bit lighter, but as a result also a bit less sturdy. There are many brands, and I'm sure that many of them make reliable accordions. A larger company is more likely to have more routine and therefore design that has proven itself over decades. I have always been happy with Bugari. They are certainly not among the most innovative companies, but in terms of reliability less innovative means sticking to proven design and manufacturing methods. You don't want something like a Pigini Peter Pan where the plastic casing around the brackets that hold the straps simply disintegrates. Go for decent wooden construction. Lighter is certainly not always better.

 

[VMaccordion]

Thank you Debra for valuable advices, I didn't know Hohner has moved their factory to China, what a pitty Since which year did that happen?
ThomasN i have never played with digital accordion even for a few minutes. I'm afraid it can develop bad habits when I'll be switching between acoustic and digital accordion. For example force of pulling or vibrato. I have heard that Roland's keyboards are very noisy especially playing with headphones. Belts wear very quick and it's all made from plastic so player needs to be very careful and play gently?

 

[Thomas N]

Thank you Debra for valuable advices, I didn't know Hohner has moved their factory to China, what a pitty Since which year did that happen?
ThomasN i have never played with digital accordion even for a few minutes. I'm afraid it can develop bad habits when I'll be switching between acoustic and digital accordion. For example force of pulling or vibrato. I have heard that Roland's keyboards are very noisy especially playing with headphones.  Belts wear very quick and it's all made from plastic so player needs to be very careful and play gently?

Oh that is not true in my case at all! I bought mine new around 6 years ago.  I play hard - very hard.  I play around two hours a day missing some days, of course. I have never had an issue - with the keyboard, with the bellows, with the bass mechanism, with the charging - with anything!  This thing just works.  I mostly practice with headphones but use the amp or the onboard speakers a few times a week.

Doing simple math at around 40 hours of playing a month, after 72 months I probably have around 3000 hours into this accordion.  The keyboard is not noisy in the least.  You can disable key clicks if you so desire. Not sure where the belts are.  My $10K custom Excelsior 960 from Italy also has a plastic/composite covering. 

I have not developed bad habits and can easily switch between my acoustic and my digital with the only difference for me being stamina.  My Excelsior is around 35 pounds with straps and it can be quite tiring to play that accordion even while seated. I don't stand and play anymore.  After every idol I had growing up had hip surgery I learned my lesson.

I don't use all the bells and whistles.  Personal preference but I don't want to hear a saxophone coming out of an accordion.  Others enjoy that aspect. The great thing is you can configure it to do what you personally want it to do.

Purists will decry the electronic accordions and I understand that.  It's fine for me and I've been playing for over 40 years.

---

One more thing - just for reference: I have broken three keys on my Cordovox that I recently sold. I have broken two keys on my Excelsior 930 over many years of usage.

And my beautiful Excelsior 960 has a broken B key on the treble side. I need to take it in for repair - and it has maybe 1000 hours on it versus the 3000+ on my digital accordion!

So I am extremely hard on my accordions.

 

[debra]

---

One more thing - just for reference:  I have broken three keys on my Cordovox that I recently sold.  I have broken two keys on my Excelsior 930 over many years of usage.

And my beautiful Excelsior 960 has a broken B key on the treble side.  I need to take it in for repair - and it has maybe 1000 hours on it versus the 3000+ on my digital accordion!

So I am extremely hard on my accordions.

---

This is very odd. I have been playing the accordion since almost 50 years. Started on PA, moved to CBA 12 years ago. I have always played in different ensembles mostly with other PA players, just a few CBA. Some of the players have been professional and most are enthusiast amateurs, playing a lot. In all the years I have never seen anyone break a key on an accordion. And the only key problems I have seen (and often fixed) were when a shoulder strap caught on a key and pulled it up a bit. I've always been able to push it back down without breaking.

I wonder what it takes to break keys on an accordion. And a lot of the accordions I have seen were built by Excelsior (mainly Hohner Morino) so it's not a problem of Excelsior versus other brands.

 

[Dingo40]

"This is very odd. I have been playing the accordion since almost 50 years. Started on PA, moved to CBA 12 years ago. I have always played in different ensembles mostly with other PA players, just a few CBA. Some of the players have been professional and most are enthusiast amateurs, playing a lot. In all the years I have never seen anyone break a key on an accordion. "

Yes, Paul, I too was wondering about that  :huh:

Perhaps when they say "key" they mean the reed relating to that key? :huh:

 

[Thomas N]

No, it's the keys themselves and not the reeds. By break, I don't mean that the key physically cracks, however.

For example, on my Excelsior 960 the Middle B key on the treble side has bottomed out.  All the other keys work fine.  This key makes a knocking sound. I would assume the felt has worn down beneath it. It's noticeable both to the player and the listener. Interestingly enough that same B key has been broken on three different accordions I own.

I do constant glissandos and fast repeating notes and if the song is in G that poor key is going to feel the brunt of it.

It's something guys like you would be able to take apart and fix probably within an hour or two but neophytes to repair like me know that I'll just make it worse by attempting to fix it!

Definitely related to style of play.

The key takeaway (pun intended) was that I play my FR-8X in the same manner and have probably double the hours into it and have no such problems.  The Magnante keyboard on the Excelsior 960 is low-travel and lightning fast - not in the same league with other keyboards I have personally owned - and I expected an issue when I ordered it.

 

[debra]

No, it's the keys themselves and not the reeds. By break, I don't mean that the key physically cracks, however.

For example, on my Excelsior 960 the Middle B key on the treble side has bottomed out.  All the other keys work fine.  This key makes a knocking sound. I would assume the felt has worn down beneath it. It's noticeable both to the player and the listener. Interestingly enough that same B key has been broken on three different accordions I own.
...

That is not something I would call "break". Replacing the felt underneath the keyboard is a fairly trivial repair, but removing the keyboard and putting it back is best left to the professionals. (It also requires removing the whole register mechanism and putting it back.) I just did a keyboard this week to fix an accordion that fell down from a table. (No, I didn't drop the accordion. I was only asked to fix it.)

 

[Thomas N]

No, it's the keys themselves and not the reeds. By break, I don't mean that the key physically cracks, however.

For example, on my Excelsior 960 the Middle B key on the treble side has bottomed out.  All the other keys work fine.  This key makes a knocking sound. I would assume the felt has worn down beneath it. It's noticeable both to the player and the listener. Interestingly enough that same B key has been broken on three different accordions I own.
...

That is not something I would call "break". Replacing the felt underneath the keyboard is a fairly trivial repair, but removing the keyboard and putting it back is best left to the professionals. (It also requires removing the whole register mechanism and putting it back.) I just did a keyboard this week to fix an accordion that fell down from a table. (No, I didn't drop the accordion. I was only asked to fix it.)

I agree with you Paul.  Wish I had the technical ability, or maybe patience, to repair these on my own.  It is broken to me, however, meaning that it effects the sound of the accordion to both me and the listener.