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reed tuning
- Thread starter danp76
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The reeds have been tuned more than once, but not abused. The filing and scratches all look normal and not excessive.
When the reed gets tuned up and down more times, and more as well it can become "abuse", and when a Dremel with grinding/milling stone is used it is certainly abuse. But these reeds still look fine.
When the reed gets tuned up and down more times, and more as well it can become "abuse", and when a Dremel with grinding/milling stone is used it is certainly abuse. But these reeds still look fine.
danp76
Active member
Thank you guys, as a result of the reeds being tuned on multiple occasions, has this "weakened" the reeds and reduced the lifespan? How do we determine that they are machine made and not hand made reeds?
danp76
Active member
When reeds are tuned this many times, will they tend to "drift" out of tune more frequently? Why is or was it necessary to tune the reeds this many times? Tuning change? or out of tune? Thoughts?
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Dan;
A machine made reed tongue that has lost it's spring tension will require tuning. Tuning a weak reed tongue is not unlike "Beating A Dead Horse". A weak tongue in the first place when metal is removed in tuning will simply weaken it more and result in tuning needed more
frequently, And with more tuning, the result will be the tongue breaking in use.
You Emailed me earlier on how to tell hand made reeds vs machine made reeds. I'll post it tonight when I finish with a customers Excelsior 960.
A machine made reed tongue that has lost it's spring tension will require tuning. Tuning a weak reed tongue is not unlike "Beating A Dead Horse". A weak tongue in the first place when metal is removed in tuning will simply weaken it more and result in tuning needed more
frequently, And with more tuning, the result will be the tongue breaking in use.
You Emailed me earlier on how to tell hand made reeds vs machine made reeds. I'll post it tonight when I finish with a customers Excelsior 960.
How reeds react to tuning is always a bit hard to predict. When tuning down small piccolo reeds for instance I have noticed that they have a tendency to come (partly) back up over the next day or two. Like tuning down 3 cents, and then after a day or two it's gone up by 1 cent again. (But I'd rather tune it down again than trying 4 cents in the first place and then just "hoping" that 1 cent will correct itself.
The reeds shown in this thread have no tuning abuse and should behave fine.
However... sometimes I have encountered reeds that show little or no signs of past tuning but that misbehave seriously. I have seen reed tongues that will start playing several cents too high and that go down over the first 5 seconds of playing to a stable frequency. They then keep that frequency when you play them regularly, as in playing music. Put the accordion away for an hour and the misbehaviour repeats again, 5 seconds and then gone... I have checked that they fit perfectly, I have hammered down the nail head more firmly, I have checked (with a razor blade) that the reed tongue is free to move over its entire length... nothing helps. This happened with tipo a mano reeds from an unknown manufacturer (no marking like typically found on some of the reeds) and I have now found such reeds in accordions from two different brands. They are over 20 years old (one is I think 50 years old)... so sometimes reeds are just a mystery.
Ventura
Been here for ages!
to be totally honest, i have always found it a bit depressing that
so many accordionists constantly ask about this set of reeds or that one
from some accordion they just bought on e-Bay for a pittance...
are they handmade reeds ? how can i tell
my God, boys and girls, give the accordion the lightest squeeze possible
and do a few runs up and down the keyboard... well made, hand made reeds,
set up properly, respond to the LIGHTEST breath of air and sing beautifully in tune
both at the lowest volume as well as the highest pressure
after playing for a few hours on Awesomely great reeds in a quality accordion,
your arms will NOT BE TIRED and you will be SMILING ear to ear
on typical reeds your shoulder will ache and your ears will rebel
ciao
Ventura
so many accordionists constantly ask about this set of reeds or that one
from some accordion they just bought on e-Bay for a pittance...
are they handmade reeds ? how can i tell
my God, boys and girls, give the accordion the lightest squeeze possible
and do a few runs up and down the keyboard... well made, hand made reeds,
set up properly, respond to the LIGHTEST breath of air and sing beautifully in tune
both at the lowest volume as well as the highest pressure
after playing for a few hours on Awesomely great reeds in a quality accordion,
your arms will NOT BE TIRED and you will be SMILING ear to ear
on typical reeds your shoulder will ache and your ears will rebel
ciao
Ventura
Ventura
Been here for ages!
regarding the reeds in the photo, the two slashes usually mean this was
one of the the MEUSETTE reedbanks
(intended to be sharper than the primary M set)
and these reeds show that they were, at one time, both sharpened
(the marking on the tips where metal was removed) and then at one time
lowered in pitch (the metal removed from the belly of the reedtongue)
it is the mass relative to the flexing point of the reed that is being used
to make the change in pitch
it is EASY to make a reed sharper, but devil of a worry hitting the
perfect spot to lower it again
Shiny tips are most common (around here at least) as many accordions
were delivered from Italy with little or no Meusette and the local dealer
would "set" the meusette sharpness to the taste and preference of the
original purchaser...
most often, the serious or (seemingly) excessive multiple gouges
uniformly found on ALL the reeds in an accordion
were due to a professional needing an Italian accordion
(often tuned originally to a-442 or higher) to be brought down to a-440
for professional use (in an ensemble or for recording)
ciao
Ventura
one of the the MEUSETTE reedbanks
(intended to be sharper than the primary M set)
and these reeds show that they were, at one time, both sharpened
(the marking on the tips where metal was removed) and then at one time
lowered in pitch (the metal removed from the belly of the reedtongue)
it is the mass relative to the flexing point of the reed that is being used
to make the change in pitch
it is EASY to make a reed sharper, but devil of a worry hitting the
perfect spot to lower it again
Shiny tips are most common (around here at least) as many accordions
were delivered from Italy with little or no Meusette and the local dealer
would "set" the meusette sharpness to the taste and preference of the
original purchaser...
most often, the serious or (seemingly) excessive multiple gouges
uniformly found on ALL the reeds in an accordion
were due to a professional needing an Italian accordion
(often tuned originally to a-442 or higher) to be brought down to a-440
for professional use (in an ensemble or for recording)
ciao
Ventura
danp76
Active member
Some great information
Some great information, the reeds pictured are machine made and not hand made reeds?
The reeds in the picture are hand made (a mano) reeds. A mano reeds are made from steel ribbon, they have a wide base that is blue on the sides (as wel as on top). Tipo a mano reeds are stamped out of sheets of steel and the sides are then silvery in color, but they otherwise look similar. On modern (past 60 years or so) tipo a mano and a mano reeds the reed tongue is hammered by hand resulting in nail with hammer marks. Machine reeds are stamped out of sheets of steel but hammered by a machine hammer, resulting in a plain nailhead that is flat at the top.
The ribbon steel is a bit stronger, meaning that when reeds are adjusted to play immediately, even in pianissimo, they still play fortissimo without choking. Machine reeds typically do not play pianissimo very well because they would then choke with fortissimo. Tipo a mano reeds... can go either way. You can often recognize for instance the somewhat limited dynamic range of a Hohner Morino because it has tipo a mano reeds and not a mano reeds. German accordion orchestras are easy to recognize by ear because of that limited dynamic range in the Hohner Morino accordions they use. Despite the Morino being quite an expensive accordion Hohner opted for tipo a mano reeds to protect the market for the Gola which has a mano reeds and as a result a greater dynamic range.
Reeds often show marks of being both raised and lowered in pitch.
It is very hard to judge the amount of filing on the tip is needed for the exact amount the pitch needs to be raised or the amount of scratching in the "lower" half of the reed to lower the pitch the exact amount. I try to always do too little so it takes a few tries to reach the goal, but commercial tuners need to work faster and will often "overshoot" the mark so they then need the opposite change... resulting in marks of raising and of lowering the pitch.
Some manufacturers deliberately scratch the underside of the reeds so that when you get a new accordion it looks like none of the reeds have been lowered in pitch, which would actually be very unlikely. The marks are just made invisible from the outside.
danp76
Active member
Thank you guys! So...it appears these are high quality reeds and nothing to be concerned with, with all of the scratches? They shouldn't drift out of tune any sooner than any other reed?
These are high quality reeds. But "nothing to be concerned with" is not something I would say about any reeds I have not actually tried and tested. I have encountered reeds that look impeccable but show anomalous behavior... Reeds can be unpredictable no matter what they look like.
danp76
Active member
Thank you Debra, they seem to sound fine, was just concerned with the appearance. Any way to tell who made the reeds? I don't see any name on them.
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In the past I've posted on hand made reeds but always in a response to a thread already posted with a different title. I'm receiving Email ??'s on hand made
reeds and when I refer them to this Forum. My responses are " I can't find the answers you posted". Now Paul has given excellent info on
hand made reeds on this thread but this thread title is not ??'s on hand made reeds but titled "Reed Tuning". As a result I've decided
to post a new thread with a definite title " Hand Made or Machine made - How can I tell ??" I'll post it shortly.
reeds and when I refer them to this Forum. My responses are " I can't find the answers you posted". Now Paul has given excellent info on
hand made reeds on this thread but this thread title is not ??'s on hand made reeds but titled "Reed Tuning". As a result I've decided
to post a new thread with a definite title " Hand Made or Machine made - How can I tell ??" I'll post it shortly.
Great idea Jim!
Most reed makers put some mark on some of the reeds, so you tell who made them. Very rarely are all reeds marked. And some accordion makers will put the marked reeds on backwards to hide the name of the reed maker. I have an old Crucianelli with seemingly unmarked reeds, but then I noticed that some reeds were placed backwards (you can tell because the diagonal stripe indicates what should be the front). When I was doing a complete rewax and revalve job I discovered these were Bugari reeds.
Some reed makers put there name on rarely used reeds, like Cagnoni stamping the low E that is missing from 41/120 piano accordions. (These may still have the name on that e appearing on the bass side.)
Some reed makers really do not identify themselves at all and that's a pity. I am now working on a Morino IV N with completely unmarked reeds that do give me trouble. (I just finished another Morino IV N with reeds marked Bugari and these reeds are fine.) It is frustrating just not knowing who is to blame for reeds that cause trouble.
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