Beemer
Active member
The piano keys of my Scandalli Air have 5mm of travel. I frequently watch YT videos where the keys appear to have much shorter travel. Are these customised keyboards?
Here is an example:
Here is an example:
Piano accordion key travel?
- Thread starter Beemer
- Start date
It may well be, but more than likely some accordion manufacturers have more or less travel based on model.
There is a lot more involved to the process in having more or less key travel... reed responsiveness, the internal design geometry/desig, spring choicen and type make the system work... nor not work.
The fastest keyboard I have ever played (out of the perhaps 500-600 accordions I have touched to date) is my Hohner Morino VI N. For me, I can play faster on the right hand on that accordion more than any other that I have played (a professionally maintained Gola 414 included, though it was very, very close), it seems to have the perfect balance between key depth and firmness. A shorter travel and a slightly firmer spring likely make it incredibly responsive to my touch in that way. The only thing I could imagine being faster is a quality high-end button accordion, but me being a piano accordion player, this is about as good as it gets, IMHO.
The slowest accordion that I ever touched is of course the Roland FR-8X, it has key travel measured in yards (LOL) but there are justifiable reasons for that, of course and I can play pretty quickly on it without much effort, just that the "top speed" is lower compared to other boxes.
There is a lot more involved to the process in having more or less key travel... reed responsiveness, the internal design geometry/desig, spring choicen and type make the system work... nor not work.
The fastest keyboard I have ever played (out of the perhaps 500-600 accordions I have touched to date) is my Hohner Morino VI N. For me, I can play faster on the right hand on that accordion more than any other that I have played (a professionally maintained Gola 414 included, though it was very, very close), it seems to have the perfect balance between key depth and firmness. A shorter travel and a slightly firmer spring likely make it incredibly responsive to my touch in that way. The only thing I could imagine being faster is a quality high-end button accordion, but me being a piano accordion player, this is about as good as it gets, IMHO.
The slowest accordion that I ever touched is of course the Roland FR-8X, it has key travel measured in yards (LOL) but there are justifiable reasons for that, of course and I can play pretty quickly on it without much effort, just that the "top speed" is lower compared to other boxes.
noelekal
The Home For Wayward Accordions
I don't have a wide experience in in playing many accordions, but the 1952 Scandalli on hand here is oodles slower with a "longer distance to depress" key action with its "waterfall" style keys than the 1964 Stradavox which has an effortless key action that is to die for by comparison.
My childhood General and a Generalfisa have key actions falling in between these two.
My childhood General and a Generalfisa have key actions falling in between these two.
Walker
🪗
A satisfying keyboard action can make playing the piano accordion a joy. However, that runway of white and black keys can vary a great deal in its action - from the clackity, deep (and frustrating) to the silky and sublime. I suppose I don't think so much in terms of the actual 'travel' in distance, but I would imagine 5mm as mentioned by @Beemer is not excessive. For me, it's more about how the keyboard action 'feels' in performance. Many of the nice accordions I have played have a variety of keyboard actions, always smooth and quiet keyboards, but some I would call a 'hard' keyboard, that is direct and responsive and the key hits the keyboard floor with little resistance. Then some other keyboards are 'soft' and the action has more springiness and a softer landing on the keyboard floor. Yet again, there is a middle ground that is more neutral than either a 'hard' or 'soft' keyboard. I personally don't see keyboards in terms of 'fastness', perhaps because I don't enjoy playing very fast and virtuosic music. I am quite old-fashioned so enjoy my Jigs and Reels at a moderate tempo with a slight swing, maybe around 114 beats per minute - I am no speed master. I prefer a smooth and slightly softer keyboard, but doubtless many will like the super-responsive keyboards instead.
Last edited:
Well, after a recent visit to my friend Ed, I have to say that I am having some doubts as to if my Hohner Morino has the fastest keyboard. I had the chance to play his Bugari 288, and I really, really enjoyed it.
The keyboard travel felt shallow and the pressure felt about perfect and it was amazingly easy to play fast. What surprised me is how instantly comfortable I felt with it (the light weight likely has a lot to do with it). Now I'd love to try them out side by side, but in my mind and in an very unscientific test, this comes to me as the first accordion that is at the very least an equal to the Hohner Morino keyboard... and for me being such a Hohner fan-boy (lol), that is saying a lot.
The keyboard travel felt shallow and the pressure felt about perfect and it was amazingly easy to play fast. What surprised me is how instantly comfortable I felt with it (the light weight likely has a lot to do with it). Now I'd love to try them out side by side, but in my mind and in an very unscientific test, this comes to me as the first accordion that is at the very least an equal to the Hohner Morino keyboard... and for me being such a Hohner fan-boy (lol), that is saying a lot.
Wow, that is one beautiful accordion! Go Ed!!!!!!Well, after a recent visit to my friend Ed, I have to say that I am having some doubts as to if my Hohner Morino has the fastest keyboard. I had the chance to play his Bugari 288, and I really, really enjoyed it.
The keyboard travel felt shallow and the pressure felt about perfect and it was amazingly easy to play fast. What surprised me is how instantly comfortable I felt with it (the light weight likely has a lot to do with it). Now I'd love to try them out side by side, but in my mind and in an very unscientific test, this comes to me as the first accordion that is at the very least an equal to the Hohner Morino keyboard... and for me being such a Hohner fan-boy (lol), that is saying a lot.
It's absolutely amazing, it comes with a spare set of reed blocks that add a stronger musette... both sound great, but the musette reed blocks... just wow.
Ventura
Been here for ages!
Ok, lets look at this issue, keytravel, and how it can impact
the potential for a really quick and responsive action
you can take any action and pad the felts, shorten the throw,
soften or stiffen spring resistance, but this is limited in value
because you must have airflow sufficient for reed response
and obviously “improved airflow” has been at the core of
many innovations and even patents for the accordion, so just
as obviously if you try to tweak a plain old action you can easily
negatively impact airflow (and reed response)
consider then, that to make a really fast, Olympic class action,
you must first begin with the factory masters setting the goal,
then the in-house design team to figure it out, then the in house
Engineering team to tool up to manufacture the action at the
needed level of tolerance, then the in house Manufacturing line
to train specialists who can install and tweak all aspects of an
improved action assembly, plus the Sales department to get
enough special orders from discerning customers to set it
all into motion…
Consider the valve on the end of the action arm.. usually they are
a fair amount larger than the embouchure so that a bit of
sloppiness in the (typical quality) action does not cause a leaky note
or loss of air pressure.. consider the angle of airflow as the pallet
begins to lift.. at first the air travels along a horizontal path as it
navigates it’s way to the vertical drop into the reed
now consider
the high tolerance engineered action with hard bushings and pinning
allowing the assembly team to CUT THOSE PALLETS so close that
they barely cover the embouchure.. so close that as the pallet begins it’s
lift the airflow is almost immediately vertical
Consider the valve on the end of the action arm.. usually it lifts along an
angle of travel rather than rising parallel to the plate.. consider an action that
includes a flexible valve..
consider the frog-leg spring under the key.. a nicely engineered keybed
might allow for long legged springs that would have more return force
yet minimize initial resistance at the keypress
consider the pivot rods.. you all already know the importance of dual rods
and the why, but have you noticed how thin some rods are ? consider
how that allows for a larger “Delta” of motion angle.. but those thin
rods must still be as strong as the thick ones typically used.. they
are part and parcel of the improved engineering and tooling..
now consider how nearly impossible it is today to afford all this
(they all use the same action supplier.. the suppliers goals are survivabilty,
affordability, ability to meet demand, simplicity of integration into
everyone's disparate assembly production system)
no wonder they dabble with solenoids.. it is much cheaper
to experiment the new way !
I describe this so you can think it through for yourselves,
And how the many elements must build upon each other
Also to remind you that just such a product path existed
for many decades at the CEMEX/Excelsior factory,
and that they did in fact have OLYMPIC class action
assemblies available on their pro line models.. yes special
order, but you may get lucky and find a used 9xx in the wild
with the refined action..
even the Tone chambered models..
which is kinda like saying after all that finesse they also had
to do it backwards and in heels like Ginger Rogers !
you will notice the key throw as soon as you press, as it is
distinctive in feel,, also note the very shallow bevel on the
keytops edge.. quite different than typically used in the industry
it is not just for speed
this kind of action gives your fingers such a firm footing
and the feeling also imparts a confidence in your touch
that simply cannot be quantified, but translates into you
being able to take chances that you never would even consider
on a normal action accordion, no matter how “nice’ it feels
the potential for a really quick and responsive action
you can take any action and pad the felts, shorten the throw,
soften or stiffen spring resistance, but this is limited in value
because you must have airflow sufficient for reed response
and obviously “improved airflow” has been at the core of
many innovations and even patents for the accordion, so just
as obviously if you try to tweak a plain old action you can easily
negatively impact airflow (and reed response)
consider then, that to make a really fast, Olympic class action,
you must first begin with the factory masters setting the goal,
then the in-house design team to figure it out, then the in house
Engineering team to tool up to manufacture the action at the
needed level of tolerance, then the in house Manufacturing line
to train specialists who can install and tweak all aspects of an
improved action assembly, plus the Sales department to get
enough special orders from discerning customers to set it
all into motion…
Consider the valve on the end of the action arm.. usually they are
a fair amount larger than the embouchure so that a bit of
sloppiness in the (typical quality) action does not cause a leaky note
or loss of air pressure.. consider the angle of airflow as the pallet
begins to lift.. at first the air travels along a horizontal path as it
navigates it’s way to the vertical drop into the reed
now consider
the high tolerance engineered action with hard bushings and pinning
allowing the assembly team to CUT THOSE PALLETS so close that
they barely cover the embouchure.. so close that as the pallet begins it’s
lift the airflow is almost immediately vertical
Consider the valve on the end of the action arm.. usually it lifts along an
angle of travel rather than rising parallel to the plate.. consider an action that
includes a flexible valve..
consider the frog-leg spring under the key.. a nicely engineered keybed
might allow for long legged springs that would have more return force
yet minimize initial resistance at the keypress
consider the pivot rods.. you all already know the importance of dual rods
and the why, but have you noticed how thin some rods are ? consider
how that allows for a larger “Delta” of motion angle.. but those thin
rods must still be as strong as the thick ones typically used.. they
are part and parcel of the improved engineering and tooling..
now consider how nearly impossible it is today to afford all this
(they all use the same action supplier.. the suppliers goals are survivabilty,
affordability, ability to meet demand, simplicity of integration into
everyone's disparate assembly production system)
no wonder they dabble with solenoids.. it is much cheaper
to experiment the new way !
I describe this so you can think it through for yourselves,
And how the many elements must build upon each other
Also to remind you that just such a product path existed
for many decades at the CEMEX/Excelsior factory,
and that they did in fact have OLYMPIC class action
assemblies available on their pro line models.. yes special
order, but you may get lucky and find a used 9xx in the wild
with the refined action..
even the Tone chambered models..
which is kinda like saying after all that finesse they also had
to do it backwards and in heels like Ginger Rogers !
you will notice the key throw as soon as you press, as it is
distinctive in feel,, also note the very shallow bevel on the
keytops edge.. quite different than typically used in the industry
it is not just for speed
this kind of action gives your fingers such a firm footing
and the feeling also imparts a confidence in your touch
that simply cannot be quantified, but translates into you
being able to take chances that you never would even consider
on a normal action accordion, no matter how “nice’ it feels
Ventura, you forgot to mention the reeds!
Badly voiced reeds are going to sound like crap on faster keyboards.... and then you get someone like me that after you do all that... says "I have a digital accordion, can you do it there too?"
Badly voiced reeds are going to sound like crap on faster keyboards.... and then you get someone like me that after you do all that... says "I have a digital accordion, can you do it there too?"
Ventura
Been here for ages!
they kinda did
the early digital and enhanced electronic accordions were on the
"tokyo at night" pathway.. like Organs of the time.. all
buttons and lights and
when we talked about the future of Digitals in Italy, Max and I,
i strongly pushed for digital shifts that looked like normal accordion shifts
and did the same exact thing acoustic accordion shifts did, so that
anyone could pick up a digital accordion to try it and wouldn't
have to figure anything out (at least for the first 10 minutes)
and then i pushed for them to scrap the Synth keys, and just use
a real accordion action (even if there were no reeds)
the new Master reedless came out with accordion shifts and a
normal action mechanism that , instead of pallets on the ends of the
arm levers, had a magnet that passed a Hall Effect switch
it looked and felt and acted like an accordion, plus it had a GM soundset
built in and other digital stuff and MIDI
the path of Digital Accordions should have grown from this point, and
continued to improve in every way and aspect simply through
refinement and Moores law
unfortunately, Roland R&D wanted to have exclusive and different
as selling points, and the Italian R&D team wanted their personal
Patents to be used (and residuals paid in perpetuity)
so the keyboard action on both sides of the box literally
took us into reverse.. the FR7 introduced the most noisy bass
action in history and the deepest "throw" on the treble side since
the post-wall Delicia's trickled out of the former Eastern Block
when you look at the refinements and competition among Digital Piano
brands for better touch you could apply all that to accordion actions too..
but roland didn't even consider that, and just went with the lowest
common denominator carbon trace stuff basically
i have not seen a disassembled EVO so i don't know if they tried something
normal there, except that anecdotally there is at least one lever that partially
opens an air valve for feel as you play
the digital accordion SHOULD/COuld have evolved with miniturization of electronics
to the point where you could simply have 2 reedsets in a tone chamber along with
everything else a good Digital Accordion would offer including a wicked fast action
and a lightweight Lithium battery.. Retail Price $4999 US dollars
the early digital and enhanced electronic accordions were on the
"tokyo at night" pathway.. like Organs of the time.. all
buttons and lights and
when we talked about the future of Digitals in Italy, Max and I,
i strongly pushed for digital shifts that looked like normal accordion shifts
and did the same exact thing acoustic accordion shifts did, so that
anyone could pick up a digital accordion to try it and wouldn't
have to figure anything out (at least for the first 10 minutes)
and then i pushed for them to scrap the Synth keys, and just use
a real accordion action (even if there were no reeds)
the new Master reedless came out with accordion shifts and a
normal action mechanism that , instead of pallets on the ends of the
arm levers, had a magnet that passed a Hall Effect switch
it looked and felt and acted like an accordion, plus it had a GM soundset
built in and other digital stuff and MIDI
the path of Digital Accordions should have grown from this point, and
continued to improve in every way and aspect simply through
refinement and Moores law
unfortunately, Roland R&D wanted to have exclusive and different
as selling points, and the Italian R&D team wanted their personal
Patents to be used (and residuals paid in perpetuity)
so the keyboard action on both sides of the box literally
took us into reverse.. the FR7 introduced the most noisy bass
action in history and the deepest "throw" on the treble side since
the post-wall Delicia's trickled out of the former Eastern Block
when you look at the refinements and competition among Digital Piano
brands for better touch you could apply all that to accordion actions too..
but roland didn't even consider that, and just went with the lowest
common denominator carbon trace stuff basically
i have not seen a disassembled EVO so i don't know if they tried something
normal there, except that anecdotally there is at least one lever that partially
opens an air valve for feel as you play
the digital accordion SHOULD/COuld have evolved with miniturization of electronics
to the point where you could simply have 2 reedsets in a tone chamber along with
everything else a good Digital Accordion would offer including a wicked fast action
and a lightweight Lithium battery.. Retail Price $4999 US dollars
The EVO is both a kind of red haired step child compared to the 8X, but the keyboard feel is vastly better, albeit at the expense of some features removed. It does feel and play like a good quality accordion keyboard!
That would mean that this manufacturer would actually want to sell a lot of accordions and even care about what an accordionist needs are. I've not found such a manufacturer yet... lol
Last edited:
Walker
🪗
You know, sometimes a really nice accordion just sticks in your mind. I certainly remember playing a few accordions that had wonderful and memorable keyboards. One such instrument encounter was about a decade ago - a modern, red celluloid Manfrini Esperto 41/120 with ivory colour keys and gold hardware. I can almost see the instrument in my mind now, it was marvellous! I recall the bellows compression was simply magic and the instrument made playing the ceilidh dance tunes and waltzes such a delight, with a wonderful keyboard - soft, 'springy' and responsive. To me a pleasing keyboard makes expressive playing so much easier. I really like the way that the pressure on the large piano keys varies greatly according to where on the surface of the key you make contact (for example, close to the outer edge requires less pressure than nearer the grill). To me that subtle interaction is what makes the piano keyboard so engaging in performance situations. I also love the way the keyboard 'touch', the bellows control and beautiful quality reeds can blend and create such a dynamic combination. Sure, I don't suppose I could ever push the accordion 'to the limits' the way Olympic level accordion wizards like Radu Ratoi or you guys Jerry and Ventura would 
, but I'm very happy to work within my limitations on a nice musette piano-box.
, but I'm very happy to work within my limitations on a nice musette piano-box.
Last edited:
I appreciate all the history in your information.
In a past post, you mentioned that "some Roland models used a stepper motor bellows configuration"
Which Roland models were these?
Ventura
Been here for ages!
any Roland with no bellows straps means it has a motor controlling the
bellows movement to include holding them closed when at rest
bellows movement to include holding them closed when at rest
Thanks for the reply. Mine has straps and the bellows open a small amount when in "playing position"
