LMMM vs LMMH

[esteeny]

Hello, All--

My first post here but I lurk a lot

I'm about to order a Bugari Artist Cassotto, 37/96 PA.  I'm trying to decide between LMMM and LMMH.  

I've been playing seriously for a few years (before that I was a pianist/keyboardist.)  I'm a musical omnivore--exploring Celtic, Cajun, French, Italian, American R&R, Jazz, Latin, and Balkan. 

I think I'm going with LMMM.  I think I understand that I'll be happiest with the musette if I go that route, and musette is very important to me,  but am I going to miss the H?  Will my diminished options with no piccolo reed bum me out when I play jazz?  I am no jazz purist, and don't play amongst jazz purists...but I do like the sound of bassoon and piccolo together for standards. I guess I can't have it all.....

 

[losthobos]

You'll miss the H more than you'll miss the exrra M... Thats my call anyway
Too many MMMs can get too wide and messy if playing 'jazzier' chords with right hand
If you were to go LMMH then all stops out would be as close as you could get to Jimmy Smiths classic Hammond Organ stops setting.. 
Just my thoughts but hope that helps...

 

[Glug]

One plus to LMMM is some have different amounts of wetness on the registers.

Heres a Victoria Super Musette that has M-M+, MM+, M-M, M-MM+ on the registers:
https://reverb.com/uk/item/28042011...ss-11-treble-and-4-bass-couplers?locale=en-GB
(Last picture shows the registers)

I dont know what the tuning is on that one but a new Ottavianelli on Liberty Bellows has +15 and -7.

 

[Jibberin]

Might be worth asking to buy an extra set of reeds blocks and thus keep all options open.
Just a thought.

 

[debra]

It's a difficult decision that I solved around 2000 when I bought a Bugari 285/ARS which is LMMMH with double cassotto (LM in cassotto). Unfortunately Bugari does not make a 37/96 version of that accordion. Initially I was not 100% happy with how MMM sounded because the middle M being in cassotto really produces a different sound than an MMM register on a non-cassotto instrument. But I got used to the sound and over the past 20 years I started liking less tremolo more and more (but not no tremolo at all) and now all newer accordions I got are LMMH with lower tremolo. I have 4 accordions (some used by my wife mostly) and the MM on them is 8, 10, 12 and 14 cents, so there is "something for every taste". The 8 cents is on my Morino which is LMMMH and it is tuned -10,0,+8 I have that option as well.
Whether LMMM or LMMH is better also depends on where you are and what the "local music" is. Irish and Scottish music typically uses a very wet musette tuning and a lot of instruments there are LMMM. In Belgium and the Netherlands an LMMM accordion has become a hard sell compared to an LMMH one, but 30 to 50 years ago that was quite different.

 

[Glenn]

To be honest, considering the prices of new accordions I would not buy either until you know yourself what you want. If you have not had some time playing both then you will always wonder whether you made the right choice. I had a second hand Guerrini LMMM then got a second hand Accordiola LMMMH. The Guerrini I sold on but I think I had enough information to know that I wanted a LMMH. If you have a particular genre that you will exclusively stick to then get an accordion for that purpose. If as appears from your post you are keen on many styles then an LMMH can cover many bases. By the way, 5 voice accordions are rather large so don’t assume a LMMMH is the answer to all problems. It causes problems of its own.

 

[maugein96]

Hi,

None of the music genres you list requires MMM, unless of course you are into Scottish Country dance music, where you can't really do without it. Most Irish music is now played on MM with swing tuning, although there are still a few LMMM accordions there with wide Irish tuning.

You say you are into "musette", but in Europe that means the French musical style that still exists, to a degree, in France. Most modern French players only use MM. The MMM is now rather old fashioned in most of Europe, as alluded to by Paul. The "Romantic Paris" type of music you hear nowadays tends to be played by Eastern European players on a mixture of MM and MMM accordions.

MMM has no place in Balkan music at all, but I suppose your decision will depend to a degree what will constitute your main genre. Some players prefer to have the facility to have MMM, simply because they like that old fashioned sound, and some would rather leave out the low M and swap it for an H.

With such an eclectic mix it is a difficult decision, but you have to decide what will work best for you, and your own preferences.

I only play French musette with the occasional foray into other styles, so a "standard" French LMM CBA is all I need. I don't need three M reeds or H reeds. It just so happens that both of my French accordions have tone chambers, but I wouldn't break my heart if they weren't there. Decent bassoon reeds are all that is required.

Your biggest issue if you go for LMMM is how wide you want the musette tuning, and that is a science all by itself, with probably as many opinions as there are players these days.

 

[Dingo40]

Esteeny,

You pays your money and takes your choice! 

Be assured, no matter what you do, you'll always wonder if you haven't made a mistake! :huh:

Human nature being what it is, you'll probably end up with both, eventually: I have! 

Then, something else will come along!

 

[byudzai]

I faced off with this as well. Decided on LMMH, but the Musette on the model I got was too narrow, so I returned it. Replaced it with another LMMH with the perfect sultry, greasy pitch width and I love it. Now, when I listen to videos of other accordions, I realize how few of them have the musette just right for my ear. So I'd recommend to find the right LMMH rather than get a bunch of over-driven MM intervals you won't like.

 

[maugein96]

I faced off with this as well.  Decided on LMMH, but the Musette on the model I got was too narrow, so I returned it.  Replaced it with another LMMH with the perfect sultry, greasy pitch width and I love it.  Now, when I listen to videos of other accordions, I realize how few of them have the musette just right for my ear.   So I'd recommend to find the right LMMH rather than get a bunch of over-driven MM intervals you won't like.

That's a good point. It's always best to try and find out from the dealer what the factory set tunings would be for the accordion you eventually buy. If it turns out that the tuning is not to your taste it can be altered, but at considerable cost. If you have heard a model of the accordion being played and that's what attracted you to it, then that's the tuning you are looking for. What I will say is that no two accordions will sound exactly the same, and different players will get different sounds out of the same accordion. 

One of my accordions has tired old reeds and sometimes lacks a bit of punch when I play it. However, my music teacher could make the windows rattle with it. 

Unfortunately, you may not know whether you have bought "the one" until you've had it for some time.  

I'm sure you'll eventually make whatever is the right choice for you.

 

[debra]

I faced off with this as well.  Decided on LMMH, but the Musette on the model I got was too narrow, so I returned it.  Replaced it with another LMMH with the perfect sultry, greasy pitch width and I love it.  Now, when I listen to videos of other accordions, I realize how few of them have the musette just right for my ear.   So Id recommend to find the right LMMH rather than get a bunch of over-driven MM intervals you wont like.

Very true that with just LMMH you can have a very large choice of MM tunings and its important when ordering an instrument to get it with the right MM tuning for you. When you order a Bugari there are a few things you can choose (like chin registers at extra cost), some color options, but most important is the amount of tremolo on the MM. You can simply specify a number of cents. The problem is that most people have no idea how a certain amount of tremolo sounds. I found the following table on the Libertybellows site:
0 hz = 0 cents = Unison
0.5hz = 2 cents = Concert
1hz = 4 cents = Swing
2hz = 7 cents = Demi-Swing, Irish
2.5hz = 10 cents = American, Cajun, Quebecois
3hz = 12 cents = Slovenian, Tex-Mex 
4hz = 15 cents = German, Italian
5hz = 18 cents = French
6hz = 22 cents = Old French, Old Italian
7hz = 25 cents = Scottish

Different people use slightly different values or terms. I for instance use German for 14 cents and Italian for 16 cents.

There is also a web page somewhere with sound samples but I cannot find it at the moment.

What people like varies over time, not just in the truly wet tuning. In the past for instance bayans had Concert tuning as standard and nowadays they are dry (Unison) tuned by default. The very low numbers are the hardest to get right and also the ones that need tuning the most as the slightest deviation can be heard. When you have something like 15 cents you wont notice if some notes are 1 cent off.

 

[esteeny]

I see youve read the story of my life then, Dingo40, sigh....



Esteeny,

You pays your money and takes your choice! 

Be assured, no matter what you do, youll always wonder if you havent made a mistake! :huh:

Human nature being what it is, youll probably end up with both, eventually: I have! 

Then, something else will come along!

---

Its a difficult decision that I solved around 2000 when I bought a Bugari 285/ARS which is LMMMH with double cassotto (LM in cassotto). Unfortunately Bugari does not make a 37/96 version of that accordion. Initially I was not 100% happy with how MMM sounded because the middle M being in cassotto really produces a different sound than an MMM register on a non-cassotto instrument. But I got used to the sound and over the past 20 years I started liking less tremolo more and more (but not no tremolo at all) and now all newer accordions I got are LMMH with lower tremolo. I have 4 accordions (some used by my wife mostly) and the MM on them is 8, 10, 12 and 14 cents, so there is something for every taste. The 8 cents is on my Morino which is LMMMH and it is tuned -10,0,+8 I have that option as well.
Whether LMMM or LMMH is better also depends on where you are and what the local music is. Irish and Scottish music typically uses a very wet musette tuning and a lot of instruments there are LMMM. In Belgium and the Netherlands an LMMM accordion has become a hard sell compared to an LMMH one, but 30 to 50 years ago that was quite different.

--Thanks, Paul.  Im in Boston.  Stylistically...complicated? Theres quite a lot of Celtic music, mostly button box players, and theres a Tango community, and some Klezmer. and the North End for Italian culture...so the prevailing atmosphere is eclectic, but not terribly orthodox.  As I said, I have a toe in a lot of styles.  I dont think I need a really wet musette. I found a thread about accordion MMM tunings--http://accordionman.web-ring.info/TUNING/-- There are samples to listen to, and I liked them all, and also (embarassingly,) couldnt really hear drastic differences between them. So Im not sure I need a wide tremolo at all. But I suspect as you said, that my preference will change over time. Maybe Ill be the mature me now and go with dryer right from the get-go.

One thing I know is, Ive fallen under the sway of the playing of the sadly departed Roberto Cassan, who I never knew, but I can hear in his playing that his Bugari was LMMH and his sound was exquisite. That, I think, is why I fear missing the H.  

---

Thanks to all--much appreciated.

Is the bandoneon register some version of MH? I also wonder whether the lack of a Piccolo reed would mean that I wouldnt have a true bandoneon register.

Fortunately, I am working with Emilio Magnone in NY to order the accordion so I think that he can translate my wishes to the Bugari workshop....but I have to be clear what my wishes are!

 

[losthobos]

Bandoneon.... LM

 

[Glug]

Most registers are listed here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accordion_reed_ranks_and_switches#Register_switches

Theres also Sax (ophone) which is LM+ somehow.

 

[Deleted member 48]

At Wikipedia the 8'+8'+16' register is called.... accordion.... 

Shows the label system for accordion registers is chaotic.

 

[debra]

Bandoneon.... LM

Indeed on many accordions Bandoneon is implemented as LM. But if you want to approach bandoneon sound MH definitely comes closer.
My suspicion is that to name some register Bandoneon they could not use MH, not only because they already named that something else, like oboe, but also because a typical bandoneon goes lower than a 41/120 PA does on the MH register. Another reason could be that LM used to work pretty well as bandoneon on non-cassotto accordions, but on a cassotto accordion the sound is definitely wrong.
I made a recording of Adios Nonino: using MH for the lead part (which should be bandoneon). It does not sound like a true bandoneon, but no register does. A bandoneon is simply a rather different instrument, with a unique sound...
I have also tried LMH in 8va and thats also not bad as a bandoneon imitation, but it requires an accordion that goes quite high (for this particular piece).

 

[John M]

I sending an LMMM Titano ACE accordion to a friend.  It is supposed to be musette tuned to Frank Yankovic's Polka tuning.  Does anyone know what the -M, M, +M tuning is?

John M.

 

[losthobos]

That MH certainly sits brilliantly as a bandoneon in that setting Paul... Shows it definitely pays to think outside the box... Thanks

 

[Thomas N]

My custom Excelsior 960 is LLMMM with LM in cassotto. The musette is tremendous and the bassoon is beautiful for jazz. Art Van Damme and Frank Marocco both dumped the H reeds completely as they concentrated on jazz and the bassoon sound almost exclusively. It's a sound I personally like and am very happy with the registers of my Excelsior.

 

[maugein96]

I sending an LMMM Titano ACE accordion to a friend.  It is supposed to be musette tuned to Frank Yankovics Polka tuning.  Does anyone know what the -M, M, +M tuning is?

John M.

Hi John,

If you are talking about the American version of Slovenian tuning, then this may be of interest to you. It is mentioned here that Frankie Yankovics accordion was completely dry tuned, which suggests it probably only had two MM reeds. European Slovenian tuning is supposedly 12 cents up on the high M reeds, and the article suggests the low M reeds may be wider tuned than the high M, e.g. -14,0,+12

https://fortbendaccordionclu.wixsite.com/accordion/tuning