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Limex Pro Mic vs. Sennheiser MT

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jozz

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Hello is there anybody with experience with both these mic systems? I only have ever used the good old Sennheisers MT-systems. I now have a used Limex Pro 3 system (with the MC3 controller) which I am thinking about building in. It's supposed to be better and has 8 + 3 mic's vs. 3 + 1 Sennheiser. However it's controls are so ugly it's like molesting your instrument. Plus I will mostly use it for amplification and disregard it's EQ settings.

My questions:
- is the pickup that much better?
- it has a 6-pin output, where a special adapter needs to go. So far I gathered it's pins are: 3 for mic signals or effect, 2 for power, but what is the 6th for?
 

debra

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jozz post_id=54851 time=1517301137 user_id=2600 said:
Hello is there anybody with experience with both these mic systems? I only have ever used the good old Sennheisers MT-systems. I now have a used Limex Pro 3 system (with the MC3 controller) which I am thinking about building in. Its supposed to be better and has 8 + 3 mics vs. 3 + 1 Sennheiser. However its controls are so ugly its like molesting your instrument. Plus I will mostly use it for amplification and disregard its EQ settings.

My questions:
- is the pickup that much better?
- it has a 6-pin output, where a special adapter needs to go. So far I gathered its pins are: 3 for mic signals or effect, 2 for power, but what is the 6th for?

Supposedly the very best is the German system made for Pigini: http://www.pigini.homepage.t-online.de/Akkordeonmikro.htm
It also uses the assumption that more mics is always better: 10 mics on the treble side and 3 on the bass side. It also uses a strange connector.
My experience with the Sennheisers MT system used by default by Italian accordion manufacturers when you want mics is that you can hear a difference in sound volume between the notes close to a mic and those further from the mics. The core of the problem is of course that the mics are too close to the sound source, being under the grille. The further the mics are from the source the more even the sound pickup is. I always use the Microvox system, mounted on an aluminum strip that is about 3cm away from the grille. The combination of 4 (treble) mics and the distance gives a very even sound pickup. But it is of course quite visible and not everyone can accept that. The only alternative is many more mics under the grille...
 

jozz

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debra post_id=54852 time=1517301910 user_id=605 said:
My experience with the Sennheisers MT system used by default by Italian accordion manufacturers when you want mics is that you can hear a difference in sound volume between the notes close to a mic and those further from the mics. The core of the problem is of course that the mics are too close to the sound source, being under the grille. The further the mics are from the source the more even the sound pickup is. I always use the Microvox system, mounted on an aluminum strip that is about 3cm away from the grille. The combination of 4 (treble) mics and the distance gives a very even sound pickup. But it is of course quite visible and not everyone can accept that. The only alternative is many more mics under the grille...

This is true but not much of a difference with the Limex strip, although each mic can be directed independently. However, my instrument is so small its less noticable. And I dont want it to be to far away when it comes to playing live because then my sound is either too roomy, or I have too crank up the gain too high and start picking up stage ambient or a lot of feedback.

But I too lean towards more mics under the grille is better. Im just wondering how I could integrate the Limex microphone strips with the simple MT potentio meters and jack connection.

Geronimo post_id=54855 time=1517303932 user_id=2623 said:
Are there independent tests comparing the various systems?

This is the other problem. There is little to be found. I currently have three systems: an older MT-06 set, a MT-04 builtin to the mini-Bugari, and am old seperate Limex Pro Mic 3. Im figuring a way to hook all 3 up in a non-invasive way too the same accordion, then record some stuff to analyse.
 

JerryPH

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Geronimo post_id=54855 time=1517303932 user_id=2623 said:
Are there independent tests comparing the various systems? I lean towards taking statements by the German Pigini distributor with a grain of salt. Hes quite opinionated, and shere number of mics will not offset any difference in quality.
The quality of the sound is the same, given 2 or 50 mics, where the difference comes is in eveness of volume from different notes depending on where they are in terms of maximum distance from the closest to the furthest. So in this case, more is better.

That said, I have been in communication with Heinz Aumüller (a German company making these mics for Pigini... lol) for mics for my Hohner, and though I find his products of good quality, his prices are a but on the ridiculous side, so that fell through for me.

If someone was enterprising and smart, they could likely make the same thing on their own for about 1/10th the cost (see my thoughts HERE about that!). Ive started looking in to how to do this a while back, but of course was side-tracked. Also since I am not a performing artist, I can get away with external microphones to handle that aspect (expect a fun video in a week or two about that! :D )

In the end, I think that the Limex Pro Mic and Sennheiser MT will sound similar. Both are good names, but I have never liked the Limex because of their packaging, it is terrible and outdated. Unless one can either get them used or free, Id never invest in the money for either of these systems, there are cheaper and better ways to get sound recorded from the accordion to the computer if that is your goal. Where internal mics have the advantage is if you use them to amplify your accordion for performance work.
 
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JerryPH post_id=54858 time=1517310349 user_id=1475 said:
Where internal mics have the advantage is if you use them to amplify your accordion for performance work.
I feel almost ridiculous for touting my one-off videos on multiple threads, but here is the one from the recent Cordovox thread:
<YOUTUBE id=CdNnJOvpv78 url=>[media]</YOUTUBE>
The first half of the audio is just the recording from a bellows internal microphone (of dubious provenance, age, and power/signal separation). This recording was done right beside a Leslie-style amp at a volume where I heard the electronic version considerably louder than the acoustic one. The only trace one actually notices is when I stop playing altogether and the rhythm machine doesnt stop until I give it yet another kick. And then its just a single drum that one can actually hear as some sort of click.

So this kind of bellows internal mic (suspended between reed blocks on rubber bands, see
<ATTACHMENT filename=DSC01978.JPG index=0>
) provides sort of an uneven response even on the treble, and of course recording bass is probably foolish since loudness depends on how far the bellows are closed.

Also all acoustic modeling of your accordion (like cassotto etc) is pretty much gone.

But if you just use that sound for topping off Midi sounds, all of this matters surprisingly little, and the bellows internal placement is robust against feedback and external sounds to a staggering degree.
 

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JerryPH

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Sorry to have made you type all that, the mistake was mine, but I meant the differences between ON accordion mics like under the grill an OFF accordion mics like external mics on stands in front of the accordion.

But another difference between inside the accordipn and outside the accordion mics is a lack of being able to create left and right hand stereo images in the recording.
 

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Geronimo post_id=54859 time=1517313862 user_id=2623 said:
The first half of the audio is just the recording from a bellows internal microphone (of dubious provenance, age, and power/signal separation).

Ok this doesnt work half bad, although when I listen to this on headphones, Im surprised how much clickety clack is picked up from manipulating the buttons even when this mic is inside the bellows..

The Limex has a configuration where it lets you output the right hand in stereo but Id probably never use that. Im mainly interested in its 8 + 3 mics and how Im going to fix that to the MT wiring. And hoping that this will give me the ultimate system.
 
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jozz post_id=54870 time=1517326202 user_id=2600 said:
Geronimo post_id=54859 time=1517313862 user_id=2623 said:
The first half of the audio is just the recording from a bellows internal microphone (of dubious provenance, age, and power/signal separation).

Ok this doesnt work half bad, although when I listen to this on headphones, Im surprised how much clickety clack is picked up from manipulating the buttons even when this mic is inside the bellows..
Hm yeah. Maybe the rubber suspension is not working well enough. The mic block might still be touching the reed blocks. Id expect this arrangement to be sensitive to pallet plopping, but one clearly also hears stuff like buttons and springs. I consider the sound quality on its own more on the painful side but it does actually add value to the mix.

The noisiest, by the way, seems to be when bellows folds jerk open. This instrument has either seen too little play, or the way the zig-zagging cable strip to the bass electronics is placed alongside the bellows is causing trouble. But I think its the former.
 
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Geronimo

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JerryPH post_id=54867 time=1517325473 user_id=1475 said:
Sorry to have made you type all that, the mistake was mine, but I meant the differences between ON accordion mics like under the grill an OFF accordion mics like external mics on stands in front of the accordion.
You forgot swan neck mics mounted above the grill on the accordion. I think AKG offers solutions like that. When the grill is significantly involved in sound forming and you aim for an acoustic recording rather than a component to be used live with an amp, that may make good sense.
But another difference between inside and outside the accordion mics is a lack of being able to create left and right hand stereo images in the recording.
Hm? As long as we are not talking inside bellows, I dont really see that. I think that inside bellows might make sense mostly when you are using treble-only in a live band context. Outside of that, inside of bellows seems like a bad idea.
 

JerryPH

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Ok this doesnt work half bad, although when I listen to this on headphones, Im surprised how much clickety clack is picked up from manipulating the buttons even when this mic is inside the bellows..

The Limex has a configuration where it lets you output the right hand in stereo but Id probably never use that. Im mainly interested in its 8 + 3 mics and how Im going to fix that to the MT wiring. And hoping that this will give me the ultimate system.

You cannot use the old wiring. The 8+3 system requires a battery thst the old system does not support.
 

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I had the Limex removed. The Sennheiser system is much more practical.
 

jozz

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JerryPH post_id=54874 time=1517331362 user_id=1475 said:
You cannot use the old wiring. The 8+3 system requires a battery thst the old system does not support.

I dont doubt you but why is this? The Limex manual says its fed by a 9v 600mah power adapter so a normal 9v alkaline (550mah I guess) wont work? Ok that would be reason enough to forget about it.
 
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jozz post_id=54876 time=1517337745 user_id=2600 said:
JerryPH post_id=54874 time=1517331362 user_id=1475 said:
You cannot use the old wiring. The 8+3 system requires a battery thst the old system does not support.

I dont doubt you but why is this? The Limex manual says its fed by a 9v 600mah power adapter
mAh is a capacity. Power adapters dont have a capacity but a current spec. Is this 600mA?
so a normal 9v alkaline (550mah I guess) wont work? Ok that would be reason enough to forget about it.
If a battery has 550mAh of capacity and is to be used on something requiring 600mA of current, it wont last an hour. Of course, the 600mA is likely a peak rating, but I would not expect the average current to be orders of magnitude smaller. What does it do with all that power? First guess would that it actually operates on 5V and drops the rest in a linear voltage regulator. When working on battery, youd be quite more skimpy with your energy and likely use a DC/DC converter.
 

jozz

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it says: "Spannungsversorgung 9VDC / 600mA"

this is the lot (it's of the internet but exactly the same stuff) that it powers, the picture is missing the LCD display that goes on top

upper left is the 6-pin plug with the capacitor
 

JerryPH

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jozz post_id=54876 time=1517337745 user_id=2600 said:
JerryPH post_id=54874 time=1517331362 user_id=1475 said:
You cannot use the old wiring. The 8+3 system requires a battery thst the old system does not support.

I dont doubt you but why is this? The Limex manual says its fed by a 9v 600mah power adapter so a normal 9v alkaline (550mah I guess) wont work? Ok that would be reason enough to forget about it.

If both systems are powered by the 9 volt battery, and you know what you are doing it might be done. That 6-wire setup, though, has me wondering. I am sure the Sennheiser is wired differently. Also, the wiring might be routed differently, you wouldnt want to direct 9 volts of power to a ground wire, or worse, route 9 volts to a mics input, if it is not designed to accept that level. Also, the internal amps (yes, there is a circuit that not only powers the mics, but you need a small amp that boosts the signal), if that is wired wrong, you get to blow another aspect of it. Also, the circuitry from one may not be designed or output optimally for the other, so its about a bit more than just those 6 wires.

Lots of ifs and maybes, but you really need to be 100% sure what connects to what, and if you are not, dont play with it, its not worth damaging either one. Basically, all I am saying Jozz, is be honest about your skill set. Either you know what you are doing, or not. Guessing and playing is probably going to cost you some damage otherwise. If you are confident in your knowledge and skills in electronics, you very likely will be able to do what you want.

A little more about my own mono Hohner setup. I was playing around and looking for a way that I could keep the same wiring as my Hohner Morino and factory setup. Well, I soon learned that electret mics have magnets inside that let them do their job, unfortunately, these magnets have a lifespan (a couple of decades is what I read), but that lifespan has long passed on my factory Hohner mics and so they are dead. I simply replaced them with capsules from dynamic mics, however, the output of those mics are very low, and so I bought an external preamp, and that worked quite well... but the capsules that I used were from really cheap mics that I had lying around doing nothing and so were good for voice, but not all that much for an accordion. If I had wanted to spend $100-$200 for a good capsule from a dynamic mic, I am sure it would sound surprisingly good, but again, no stereo image.

However, that said, I made a recording from them, and did a small test. My goal was to play a set of chords on the accordion and see if the volume from the bass (that was moving away as I pulled the bellows apart) would drop down drastically, as Heinz Aumüller suggested to me. So I made a recording, trying very hard to maintain a stable volume from fully closed to fully open and did this several times. Yes, there was a difference between full open and full closed, but it was less than 3 db measured on the sound meter of my phone when the recording was played back over speakers. Almost inaudible and again, unless you are a professional recording artist, wont affect you. Another myth kind of busted, because that bellows makes a very efficient place to bounce sound all around in.

I am convinced that I could, if I wanted, build a system that is almost as good as the Heinz Aumüller system for *way* less than he charges. However, I think that for me, I found the perfect answer for my needs (my needs are for home recording, in a controlled environment with a separate left-right stereo image and great sound quality, NOT live performances). As I said... more to come on this soon. :)

Great topic! :D
 
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I have a Limex Midi system (no mics) and it has a six connector cable. It looks similar to what is in your picture. Sends signals for mics (audio) and midi, plus power to the Limex board. I believe there is only one cable regardless if you use mics, midi, or both. Check with Limex, but Im guessing you could just use one of these cables. Youd need to get the power adapter and the Limex adapter cable. You can find them here:
http://www.musik-buedenbender.de/mikrofon-ersatzteile.html
This would be the easier than using batteries and/or re-wiring things.
 

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Ive tried only once an accordion microphone system made in brazil, very similar to the ones you posted. And i found out that the Electret microphones were just chinese common electrets, and not Senheisser brand as they comment on the website. And, i studied electronic engineering, so ive ended building my own set of microphones. I had a lot of experiences with many versions of it.

First, ive made the inside mic, and tried with a lot of different microphones (Just one microphone inside, but changing one by one to test the sound of each mic). The sound was good, but as everyone knows, the bass changed when fully open/closed, and the sound was completely mono, so when i played Clarinet, the bass covered the sound of the keyboard completely.

Then i tried to make my own under grille microphones.
Sin título-1.jpg20180101_203807.jpg
Ive ended up with 4 electret microphones on the treble (with the output on the bottom) and 2 on the bass (with the output on the bass cover) (For a 72 bass) and it works pretty good. So, it is Stereo, you can apply separate effects and EQ for both treble and bass.

Now i work installing my final version for the accordionists in my city. It is not a professional looking system, but it works pretty good. (and you cant look it as it is under the grille ;) )I also attach a 3.7v 1500mAh Battery, with a charging circuit board to make it work properly. (The second one is the charger port)

20180101_203702.jpg

As a suggestion, try to make your own. It is not that hard and its VERY cheap compared to the systems that you are talking about, with very similar results.

If anyone wants the schematics of my system, PM me and i will be happy to send it and give support on building/installing. (it all costs no more than $20 dollars)

Geronimo post_id=54877 time=1517338124 user_id=2623 said:
If a battery has 550mAh of capacity and is to be used on something requiring 600mA of current, it wont last an hour.

This is true, and what you say about the voltage regulator is also true. The system works at 9v just because the batteries on the market are 9v. But i have my system working from 3v to 4.2v and it works very good. Electret microphones can work from 1v to 25v without problems (even 30v, but we dont need high voltage for an accordion)
 
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Morne

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Sebastian Bravo post_id=54908 time=1517382811 user_id=2512 said:
If anyone wants the schematics of my system, PM me and i will be happy to send it and give support on building/installing. (it all costs no more than $20 dollars)

If youre willing to make this public, why not start a new thread on DIY Microphones? It would be interesting to follow the base designs and seeing how people adapt and improve the system. You can license your schematics as CC-BY-SA or similar if you care about that. Unless you meant that youre selling the schematics/support for $20.
 
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