learning by doing?

[andrewjohnsson40]

How is playing accordion at a dance and practicing the dance music at home different? If they are different doesn't that dissprove the learning by doing method?

 

[Anyanka]

When you play for actual dancers, you get feedback - not just verbal feedback later (if you're lucky), but immediate visual clues. If you've made everyone get to their feet, you must have done something right. Also, you'll be able to tell if your speed is a) consistent and b) appropriate; if you make them fall over, you're definitely going wrong.

Other advantages of playing for real dancers: you have to keep going, even when you make mistakes. I've been playing for Morris for six years or so, and can now keep the melody going in my head even when I completely lose it in my fingers; I also usually manage to keep the bass going so that the dancers still have the rhythm until I find my way back into the tune.

I can't see that this disproves anything: it is still 'learning by doing' i.e. learning to play for dancers by playing for dancers....

 

[andrewjohnsson40]

When you play for actual dancers, you get feedback - not just verbal feedback later (if youre lucky), but immediate visual clues. If youve made everyone get to their feet, you must have done something right. Also, youll be able to tell if your speed is a) consistent and b) appropriate; if you make them fall over, youre definitely going wrong.

Other advantages of playing for real dancers: you have to keep going, even when you make mistakes. Ive been playing for Morris for six years or so, and can now keep the melody going in my head even when I completely lose it in my fingers; I also usually manage to keep the bass going so that the dancers still have the rhythm until I find my way back into the tune.

I cant see that this disproves anything: it is still learning by doing i.e. learning to play for dancers by playing for dancers....

Do you sing the melodies or just play them on the squeezbox?
Swedish dance music is kinda strange to sing, I would say, but its singable for some. Would that be your experience with Englush dances? Do you sing them in order to remeber them in your head? I often hear that singing basslines or melodies is great.
Is this something that could help me?

Is there any performance anxiety that one needs to over come?
Personally I think that learning by doing is a lot about playing through something but doing it with adrenaline. You can do this at home. I have psychological problems with this. I mean, I get too much adrenaline or something. Just f*****g play something is hard. Its not about performance anxiety but a problem of just playing.
What is your advice?
I am not asking for a discussion but rather practical tips!

 

[TomBR]

Learning to play at home is like putting tools in the toolbox.

When you play for dancing you go out and you use those tools. You will probably be nervous at first which can make it harder, but you have to have the tools in the box.

The more you play in public for dancing the better you get because like Anyanka said, you learn to use the response from the dancers to improve what you do.

 

[JerryPH]

The ultimate goal for ANY musician is to play for an audience, whether that be one person or one billion people.

If all you are doing is playing for yourself, all you are doing is practicing, you are not making music and it doesn't matter what way that is twisted... this is a fact.

One can practice for a lifetime or play for one's self and not ever hit on those amazing little differences that make a musician... a maker of MUSIC instead of just a series of rehearsed sounds... you bring out the emotion in people, you make them happy or sad or bring them back to a different time in their lives.

That is making music... indeed, this is the main reason music even exists!

Though practice, is needed, because no one will ever play well without investing the years of time and seriously devoted effort, the ultimate test, the big payoff, is the joy YOUR music brings out in another human being.

 

[Geronimo]

The ultimate goal for ANY musician is to play for an audience, whether that be one person or one billion people.

If all you are doing is playing for yourself, all you are doing is practicing, you are not making music and it doesnt matter what way that is twisted... this is a fact.

The person you are playing for can most certainly be yourself. I was lucky enough to have a violin handy at several bad times in my life. People listen to music for a large variety of reasons and effects, and music you are playing yourself works for many of those purposes as well. I dont actually listen to a whole lot of music other than the one I am playing myself: its important to me that I am pacing the music and expressing it. You are stating that it is a fact I am not making music then. Thats not as much a fact as your rather personal definition of what making music entails.

Am I a liar for calling the noises I make on my instruments that no-one else will likely hear any rendition of music for lack of any more suitable word?

 

[JerryPH]

The person you are playing for can most certainly be yourself.

Not really. Playing for one is practicing, I have seen this so many times. There is no response from outside of yourself, it is all inside, and as was once said... easiest person to fool is yourself. Music, real music requires more than one person. Playing for yourself is no more truly fulfilling than arguing with yourself or talking to yourself. DOnt believe me? Try playing with another musician... try playing for one other person... try playing for a room or hall filled with people... music is THERE... its not in that closed room with you looking in your mirror at yourself.

Compare the differences of talking to yourself and having a conversation with another person, if a greater simplification is needed. Sure we can read poetry to ourselves in a small room with a locked door, but how does that compare to reading poetry to someone you love?

Very bland in comparison. In one case we are reading poetry... with the other one, we are READING POETRY with emotion and receiving a return.

I was lucky enough to have a violin handy at several bad times in my life.

And I am sure it made you feel better. Now imagine that same situation being in a bit bigger room filled with people of like mind that you could share your emotions with... and FEEL and SEE their emotion in return supporting you as you play!

People listen to music for a large variety of reasons and effects, and music you are playing yourself works for many of those purposes as well.music then. Thats not as much a fact as your rather personal definition of what making music entails.

I never said there was only one reason for music, because there are many, therapeutic reasons being one of them, but there is one main reason for its existence. The best, most important reason.

I did say that playing alone in a room (as good as it might be for you that moment), is about as fulfilling as the difference as kissing yourself in the mirror versus receiving the kiss of someone who loves you.

Humanity demands an exchange of emotion, a sharing... and nowhere else in this world is this so clearly displayed as in music. There is ZERO exchange of emotion if you play alone... you are feeling yourself and feeding nothing except your own personal ego if it is left too long without a release, and that is a very shallow and weak version of what it can be when you play for an audience.

I can play as good or bad as I want alone, but nothing... NOTHING brings my life in to focus more than the look my parents had in their eyes when I played for them, or the feelings I felt returned to me when I made a total stranger go back to that part in their lives that they broke down and cried in joy because they heard a song that reminded them of a time long past, or the tears I shed when for that one time in my life I played in perfect mental, emotional and sonic harmony with another group of musicians... not only in sound, but mind and heart, as did every other musician on that stage that day. Music is extremely powerful, but locked up in a room alone with one is the perfect castration of the very best that music is.

Playing alone will never give you that true fulfillment... it is truly a weak sauce when compared.

Am I a liar for calling the noises I make on my instruments that no-one else will likely hear any rendition of music for lack of any more suitable word?

The word liar is a strongly negative word and I did not use it, you did, lets remember that. However, if this is truly how you feel, then lets say that you are missing a very great and important aspect of music and perhaps even in life... but I hope that one day this changes for you, and you are rewarded for your gift of music that you give to another person.

Music is meant to be shared not hoarded. If that was not true... why are you sharing your videos to the world??

Its kind of like that old joke if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it still make a sound? The answer is of course it does... but nobody really cares, because for them, it doesnt exist. Until your music is released outside that room... it doesnt exist to anyone else... but you.

So... the real question about the differences is that OUR PERSONAL opinion of our own music has some value, if only as a form of evaluation, but in the end its not all that important, it takes the input of our peers and their shared emotional response to make that step from rehearsing to making music.

 

[Geronimo]

Humanity demands an exchange of emotion, a sharing... and nowhere else in this world is this so clearly displayed as in music. There is ZERO exchange of emotion if you play alone... you are feeling yourself and feeding nothing except your own personal ego if it is left too long without a release, and that is a very shallow and weak version of what it can be when you play for an audience.

Being unable to enjoy your own music except through the ears of others is not going to help you a lot develop your own artistic vision.

Playing alone will never give you that true fulfillment... it is truly a weak sauce when compared.

You consider what feels true to you as a law universal for everyone. I am glad that the universe is more diverse than that.

Music is meant to be shared not hoarded. If that was not true... why are you sharing your videos to the world??

I am not sharing those parts that are therapeutic to me at some point of time. They would not speak to others. And what I am sharing is not really all that suitable for enjoyment either: I am too bad of a player for that. Its more for inspiration. Giving people ideas what they could be doing better. Its not exactly infrequent that videos of mine gather more Dislikes than Likes because the viewers feel I am wasting their time, and I cannot blame them for it.

Its kind of like that old joke if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it still make a sound? The answer is of course it does... but nobody really cares, because for them, it doesnt exist. Until your music is released outside that room... it doesnt exist to anyone else... but you.

I am sort of important to me. When I had a stroke last year, it was sort of useful to have an electronic accordion and the C major fugue of Bachs well-tempered Clavier around in the rehab center to get my dexterity back up to speed. I wouldnt do that if I did not enjoy it. And Ive spent countless hours with the Bach solo partitas and sonatas when I was younger, never getting them to performance level and never bothering to (it would have been ridiculous to presume). They still gave me a lot of joy and pensive thought.

For you that doesnt count. I can accept that. For me it did and does count. You cannot accept that.

Lets leave it at that.

 

[JerryPH]

Lets leave it at that.

I can do that. But just to be clear, it doesnt mean we disagree on everything, nor that I dont value your opinions on many things you share irrespective of if we agree or not. Were just 2 different people who love to share.

 

[andrewjohnsson40]

Aren't people off-topic!?!!

 

[jozz]

Is there any performance anxiety that one needs to over come?
Personally I think that learning by doing is a lot about playing through something but doing it with adrenaline. You can do this at home. I have psychological problems with this. I mean, I get too much adrenaline or something. Just f*****g play something is hard. Its not about performance anxiety but a problem of just playing.
What is your advice?
I am not asking for a discussion but rather practical tips!

Not quite sure what youre exactly asking, but learning by doing for me is: trying something, and see immediate effect. Holds true for playing music especially I think.

Immediate effect is then something you experience when other people react to your playing.

But otherwise I just record myself, listen back and most of the time you can hear if its nice or not or feel what needs to be changed. Then I know I was doing the right thing and add it to my general experience. Finally I go on work out the nice things, and try to make them beautiful. Ditch the ones that didnt work.

Just playing for yourself without recording makes it a lot harder to judge yourself properly. So that would be my tip.

 

[JerryPH]

Arent people off-topic!?!!

For me, no, not this time, I dont believe so. There is playing alone and then playing in front of an audience and the differences, my reply was related to your query, but I was already through with this thread, so dont worry, Ill not continue in the thread anymore after this post.

 

[Geronimo]

Arent people off-topic!?!!

Well, sort of. The tangent was about whether music could even be called music outside of performance situations. But yes.

Is there any performance anxiety that one needs to over come?
Personally I think that learning by doing is a lot about playing through something but doing it with adrenaline. You can do this at home. I have psychological problems with this. I mean, I get too much adrenaline or something. Just f*****g play something is hard. Its not about performance anxiety but a problem of just playing.
What is your advice?
I am not asking for a discussion but rather practical tips!

The thing is that any performance worth its salt is an interaction with audience. You need mental capacity for that, and you are working in surroundings/circumstances you havent practiced in.

That piece you mastered last week? Forget it. You still need 90% of your head to play that, and you dont have that much available. Basically you have to use repertoire that mostly plays itself.

How to practice? Well, turn on a video cam and plan to make a good take for Youtube or relatives or whatever. Bam, instant decrease in abilities and rise in self-consciousness. Stand in front of a full-length mirror and watch yourself playing. Quite interesting (assuming that you dont look at your fingers constantly anyway) and a surprisingly effective visual distraction. Also check that face of yours and practice looking not like you are ready to strangle a cat (if you look at videos of me showing my face, youll notice that I am not overly successful at that). Now make no mistake: an audience is a lot more anticipative and interactive than a video cam and an actual outlet for acting/talking out adrenaline rather than a recording situation where you just get more and more annoyed and self-conscious. Nevertheless, cam training is better than nothing.

 

[Anyanka]

Do you sing the melodies or just play them on the squeezbox?
Swedish dance music is kinda strange to sing, I would say, but its singable for some. Would that be your experience with Englush dances? Do you sing them in order to remeber them in your head? I often hear that singing basslines or melodies is great.
Is this something that could help me?

The melodies sort of play in my head - I dont sing them out loud most of the time, although singing a tune is an excellent way of memorising it. If youre trying to learn a new tune by ear, then singing is definitely a good way to learn the actual tune before having to do battle with fingers & keys, as our voice is usually our easiest instrument (if not always the prettiest).

Im going on a weekend of playing Swedish folk tunes on the Säckpipa, by the way - I love the lilting nature of the polskas, but I need to learn to dance Swedish style to really understand how to play those tunes. There isnt that much opportunity for Swedish dancing around here unfortunately: Id love to play for that.

Is there any performance anxiety that one needs to over come?
Personally I think that learning by doing is a lot about playing through something but doing it with adrenaline. You can do this at home. I have psychological problems with this. I mean, I get too much adrenaline or something. Just f*****g play something is hard. Its not about performance anxiety but a problem of just playing.
What is your advice?
I am not asking for a discussion but rather practical tips!

Performance anxiety - yes, absolutely. I was musical sidekick in my Morris side for the first year or two and played whistle, which is my comfort instrument. When the box player left, I had to learn all the tunes on accordion and either lead a raggle-taggle band of more or (mostly) less capable musicians, or play on my own, in front of audiences, in freezing weather, in terrible acoustics etc. I didnt enjoy it at all for the first year or two, but persevered, and now love being in charge of sound. What helped is that my Morris pals appreciate what I do and support me completely, even when I go wrong - they laugh WITH me rather than AT me...

 

[Anyanka]

re the off-topic topic - music is still music when there is no audience.

I love the sense of purpose that comes with playing for dancers (I also play for ceilidhs and French folk dancing occasionally), but one of my favourite musical activities is improvising on the piano. It's like a meditation, completely absorbing once I get 'into the zone', and I am usually on my own or with the amazingly tolerant audience that is my husband, gently snoozing in his chair... It's probably the best music I make, but I have no intention of taking it anywhere else.

 

[maugein96]

I am speaking for myself entirely here, but I suppose the most important thing for some people is simply to be able to play the instrument of their choice at a level they are comfortable with. If that means they never reach the stage where they get to perform in front of an audience, then they are surely still entitled to play purely for their own enjoyment.

I've discovered on the forum that music is a very personal thing. If like me you choose to play music that is not very popular in your own country, or is now considered old fashioned, or both, then you don't have an audience. It really is as simple as that, in my particular case at least.

I have played in front of audiences with other instruments, but as part of a band, and yes there is a whole new different experience involved with that.

However, some of my greatest musical moments have been when I've managed to work out a difficult part of a tune, with just me and whatever instrument was involved being present.

Each to their own. There are thousands of so-called "air-guitarists" out there happy to do whatever it is they get their kicks from. Is that music, or enjoying music? I don't know and don't really care. Let them get on with it if that is their wont.

 

[JEBrown]

I find that playing in front of anyone else gives me enough nerves to affect my performance. I prefer to have a practice performance before the real thing - the practice can be before pretty much anyone.

And when playing for a dance - I play with music but I prefer to have everything under my fingers so if I make a mess of it I can usually catch up relatively quickly. I'm lucky in that I'm never the sole melody instrument, nor the sole harmony instrument, so if I do make a mess of it I don't screw up the whole thing. Rehearsing on my own can only get me so far, as the fiddler in the group i play with always plays faster than I practice (no matter what speed I practice at this always seems true - oddly). On the other had a bit of adrenaline from playing in front of an audience helps to speed up my own performance.

Finally, it's worth remembering that the dancers won't really be listening to what you're playing, they just need the beat. And people watching will mostly be watching the dancers, so in reality even if you make some mistakes most people won't notice.

 

[Keymn]

If you practice technique then perform without your audience involved, you are accomplishing nothing. Practice and give your audience a show! You will become a more polished musician.

 

[george garside]

I find that playing in front of anyone else gives me enough nerves to affect my performance. I prefer to have a practice performance before the real thing - the practice can be before pretty much anyone.

And when playing for a dance - I play with music but I prefer to have everything under my fingers so if I make a mess of it I can usually catch up relatively quickly. Im lucky in that Im never the sole melody instrument, nor the sole harmony instrument, so if I do make a mess of it I dont screw up the whole thing. Rehearsing on my own can only get me so far, as the fiddler in the group i play with always plays faster than I practice (no matter what speed I practice at this always seems true - oddly). On the other had a bit of adrenaline from playing in front of an audience helps to speed up my own performance.

Finally, its worth remembering that the dancers wont really be listening to what youre playing, they just need the beat. And people watching will mostly be watching the dancers, so in reality even if you make some mistakes most people wont notice.

I much prefer all dance band members to play without the dots as they can be a distraction from the job of playing for the dancers. You mention the people watching the dancers that may or may not be true but the ESSENTIAL thing is for the band members to watch the dancers so as to be at one with them.
Sir Jimmy Shand, leaader of probably the most popular accordion lead band ever ( record sales into millions and more tracks recorded than FRank Sinatra and elvis prestly put together) said something on the lines of watch the dancers and they help you and it sort of comes back to you

As to rehearsing/pracising on your own its ok to get the basics of a tune but practicing as a group is absolutely essential to make turn a motley collection of musicians into a competent rhythmic dance band.

and yes - for dance music of any genre rhythm is king!

george