just sayin' regarding leathers

[Ventura]

personally i would not use plastic reed valves if you paid me and gave them to me for free

forever i have been using Ike's refurbishing tip of taking old decent leathers and
giving them a light coat of Lexol then rolling them opposite and leaving them sit for
a night then flattening them out on a piece of Waxed paper until you use them

leather is leather.. i figure if lexol can soften and re-juvenate my old leather Bikers jacket, it can soften
accordion leathers too, and it does.

forever i have been butchering useless junk accordions for reed leathers.. just think,
$20 bucks for 300 or 400 leathers and lots of other good parts too

forever i have been visiting the high end expensive Furniture stores that typically have
hundreds even thousands of approx 1foot square leather samples in tons of colors and finishes
for people to see, feel, take home, compare, etc. Often these stores throw away hundreds of
leather samples when a new line of Sofa's and chairs replace an old series

i have gotten literally thousands of these for free over the years

many are suitable for accordion use.. i mean these are superfine italian leathers in many cases..
pick out the right thickness, finish, get a line on the grain and cut out your own valves,
key-facings, gaskets, keybedliners, etc. I ended up with so much damn leather i would cut
my own gaskets whenever i replaced a Speaker in one of my cabinets, and lined the bottoms
of many Equipment cases too.

forever i have been using the indian head shellac because i was already using it on
my 1963 mercury comet station wagon oil pan (my first car) that i completely rebuilt..
i figured if it can hold a 6 cylinder motor together it can hold a reedvalve just fine
and it does

just sayin' buy some expensive but good valve leathers from a supplier if you
want to save time, but don't think you have to be stuck using that mylar and
other snappy noisy flappy plastic junk

really, just pick up a good pair of scissors and make your own

swipe the leather samples if you have to or just bring them back to the
store a little smaller than they were when you "borrowed" them

just sayin'

 

[Pipemajor]

Thanks for that Ventura. That's the sort of commonsense info. we need. I had never heard of Lexol, but just searched on E-bay and found one seller with an amazing offer. 2 bottles each of conditioner and deep cleaner for £8.25 including postage so I snapped one up. There's only 2 more sets left with this seller so if you want one, better get in quick

 

[debra]

I agree with the opinion that leather valves are the best, but...
1) It's hard to get a consistent behaviour from smaller leather valves, especially at low sound volume.
2) Leather valves should always have metal booster springs, but getting them right for smaller valves is quite hard. Most accordion makers have been omitting booster springs on smaller leather valves, adding to the inconsistent behaviour over time.
3) Even very respected manufacturers have started using plastic valves from about E5 onwards (until around C#6 they stop using any valves).
Generally my approach is to put leather valves on the lower notes and once I cannot get consistently good behaviour (staying close to the same frequency at low and high volume) I switch to plastic valves. That may be around E5, but sometimes also lower.
I am not afraid of bad results when using plastic valves for anything from around C4, because even good quality Bugari Conservatory instruments (with a mano reeds, double cassotto and convertor) have plastic valves upwards from around C4 and they sound great.
(My Pigini bass accordion also came with plastic valves for the higher notes. And it came with leather-like valves with plastic booster springs (layers) for lower notes and those are really rubbish.)

 

[Ventura]

Debra, i understand your approach and true repair techs like you
can, of course, make them work correctly and really, you need to spend
your repair time efficiently so using current materials is right for you

playing around with Italian Sofa Leather is time consuming
and suited for those of us who are just fixing things up and
can afford to spend the extra time as we coax old leathers
back to life with Lexol and such

plus, you need to be able to guarantee your work, and know
it will hold up without needing touched up a month from now

 

[Ventura]

I had never heard of Lexol,

Amazon has it too

basically i just touch a dab on my finger or lightly on a q-tip
and apply a light coat to the smooth side of the old leather valve,
leaving the other (sealing) side dry

it soaks it up quickly.. maybe a second swipe but not enough to be soaked through
as you don't want the sealing side to get tacky.. then like Ike said roll it
up a few times sealing side in then leave it in the rolled up position overnight

next day flatten them out nicely on the wax paper and let them feel alive again
and regain their normal flat shape and strength

good luck getting the hang of it !

 

[debra]

Debra, i understand your approach and true repair techs like you
can, of course, make them work correctly and really, you need to spend
your repair time efficiently so using current materials is right for you
...

Well... as I am retired I don't need to use my repair time efficiently (and I really don't) but I do use new leather valves instead of trying to revive old ones. But the adjustments to make the reeds have a more or less constant frequency regardless of the sound volume, that's where the time and effort really goes, and that explains why accordion manufacturers don't bother and just "wing it" instead of carefully adjusting each leather and booster spring. In the Accordion Craft Academy I took the "advanced tuning" module, and while it was interesting and we learned a lot, the subject of that careful spring adjustment was not even mentioned!

 

[colinm]

I agree with the opinion that leather valves are the best, but...
1) It's hard to get a consistent behaviour from smaller leather valves, especially at low sound volume.
2) Leather valves should always have metal booster springs, but getting them right for smaller valves is quite hard. Most accordion makers have been omitting booster springs on smaller leather valves, adding to the inconsistent behaviour over time.
3) Even very respected manufacturers have started using plastic valves from about E5 onwards (until around C#6 they stop using any valves).
Generally my approach is to put leather valves on the lower notes and once I cannot get consistently good behaviour (staying close to the same frequency at low and high volume) I switch to plastic valves. That may be around E5, but sometimes also lower.
I am not afraid of bad results when using plastic valves for anything from around C4, because even good quality Bugari Conservatory instruments (with a mano reeds, double cassotto and convertor) have plastic valves upwards from around C4 and they sound great.
(My Pigini bass accordion also came with plastic valves for the higher notes. And it came with leather-like valves with plastic booster springs (layers) for lower notes and those are really rubbish.)

Debra, I am surprised that you say all leather valves need booster springs, most accordions I have seen inside only seem to have boosters on the larger valves. Is this a modification you make to all accordions ?
cm

 

[pitzelberger]

forever i have been using Ike's refurbishing tip of taking old decent leathers and
giving them a light coat of Lexol then rolling them opposite and leaving them sit for
a night then flattening them out on a piece of Waxed paper until you use them

I really like this idea. What do you do if there are bosster springs on the reads? Remove them first and reapply them after the procedure?

 

[debra]

Debra, I am surprised that you say all leather valves need booster springs, most accordions I have seen inside only seem to have boosters on the larger valves. Is this a modification you make to all accordions ?
cm

I tend to leave accordions as is as much as possible, so I don't add booster springs if they are not already there. Some manufacturers also omit booster springs inside the reed block for notes in the middle rane while they still apply springs on the outside for the same notes. (That's just trying to save money I guess.) Some companies apply booster springs to all the leather valves (Victoria for instance, and Russian bayans also come with springs on all the leathers) and some don't put booster springs on for higher notes. The result is simply that on these notes the leathers eventually start sagging (staying open or making flappy noise when a note starts). Leather has very little "spring force" by itself.

 

[pitzelberger]

I tend to leave accordions as is as much as possible, so I don't add booster springs if they are not already there. Some manufacturers also omit booster springs inside the reed block for notes in the middle rane while they still apply springs on the outside for the same notes. (That's just trying to save money I guess.) Some companies apply booster springs to all the leather valves (Victoria for instance, and Russian bayans also come with springs on all the leathers) and some don't put booster springs on for higher notes. The result is simply that on these notes the leathers eventually start sagging (staying open or making flappy noise when a note starts). Leather has very little "spring force" by itself.

In one accordion I have (an Excelsior with triple musette) only the M1 has booster springs in the lower and middle range, while M2 and M3 only use them in the lower range. Probably also a matter of saving money.

I also have a Sonola SS4 where I replaced all the reed valves. Initially I also tried to keep it as close to the original as possible where only the lower ones had booster springs. However, I never got all those without booster to sound right. Most of them where making flappy noises on the note start. Not sure how Sonola did this in the beginning, as the original ones without the booserts didn't make the flappy noises. Anyway, I went back and applied boosters as well to the others. Now they sound much better.

 

[debra]

In one accordion I have (an Excelsior with triple musette) only the M1 has booster springs in the lower and middle range, while M2 and M3 only use them in the lower range. Probably also a matter of saving money.

Definitely a matter of saving money. They must have thought that as the M2 and M3 reed banks are only used together with M1 and have tremolo it wouldn't matter.

I also have a Sonola SS4 where I replaced all the reed valves. Initially I also tried to keep it as close to the original as possible where only the lower ones had booster springs. However, I never got all those without booster to sound right. Most of them where making flappy noises on the note start. Not sure how Sonola did this in the beginning, as the original ones without the booserts didn't make the flappy noises. Anyway, I went back and applied boosters as well to the others. Now they sound much better.

The flappy noise is cause by the valve not staying fully closed by itself so when you play a note the valve next to it (the valve of the non-playing reed) first needs to be sucked closed before the note starts playing. This causes a delay if it happens with lower notes, and it causes the flapping sound. For the highest notes with valves it's very hard to get a spring to produce so little force that it doesn't affect the sound of the playing reed, so that why for the highest notes that have valves manufacturers started using plastic valves.

 

[pitzelberger]

The flappy noise

Actually for most of the reads it wasn't the single flap that you describe (sorry I got your previous message wrong), but more of a constant fluttering noise (also caused by the opposite valve) when you played notes at very low pressure.

 

[debra]

Actually for most of the reads it wasn't the single flap that you describe (sorry I got your previous message wrong), but more of a constant fluttering noise (also caused by the opposite valve) when you played notes at very low pressure.

Right, that happens too, caused by the valve resonating at the same frequency of the note (or half the frequency sometimes). This is more common with low notes, but does happen with higher notes as well.

 

[Ventura]

resonant frequencies finding a sympathetic valve !

i had never thought of this.. have some awareness as i recall we studied one
Piano maker who tried to design a Grand harp that matched the "dead" part of the strings
between the agraffes and the wrest (tuning) pins to be in a well tuned harmonic of the string pitch

and of course speaker cabinet design 101.. never build a square because
the same resonant frequency will be emphasized in both directions and cause
a weak spot as well as a spike in the overall smoothness of the speakers response

and Tesla's famous tests of resonance on the support beam of twin buildings
and telegraph poles and such

i am thinking a sympathetic resonance would be MORE likely on
plastic reed-valves because they are a dense and hard material by comparison