I'm with C system for a few years. Interested to know how hard to play the B system. Do you or someone you know play both systems? I remember saw this topic before but couldn't find it here. Thanks for your thoughts and insights :ch
-
-
We're having a little contest, running until 15th May. Please feel free to enter - see the thread in the "I Did That" section of the forum. Don't be shy, have a go!
Is it possible to play both C system and B system?
- Thread starter yc360
- Start date
- Status
yc360 post_id=48900 time=1500825628 user_id=1464 said:
It would completely confuse your brain! Dont do it.
People who changed from one to the other (because of a very good deal on a dream accordion in the wrong system) afterwards told me that this switch was a bad idea, let alone trying to use both at the same time.
A teacher may understand the other system just enough to come up with fingering advice for students, but not to play both.
Combining PA and one system of CBA can work, but I would strongly advise against learning both C and B system.
george garside
Prolific poster
- Joined
- May 11, 2013
- Messages
- 1,850
- Reaction score
- 5
I agree totally with debra. You could change from C to B system but would have to spend some considerable time relearning the keyboard, scales etc etc.
But trying to play both could result in utter confusion!
it is for similar reasons that the only 3 row chromatic diatonic I play is the BCC#(British Chromatic) as fluency in various keys on some of the hybrid diatonics that enable several keys to be played would result in utter confusion. I do however find that the British Chromatic and the continental C system can coexist fairly peacefully!. Probably because there is sufficient distance between the 2 systems making them in some ways like playing two completely different instruments as far as the treble end is concerned.
The B system and C system are in a sense completely different - but only just! hence the problem with playing both.
george
But trying to play both could result in utter confusion!
it is for similar reasons that the only 3 row chromatic diatonic I play is the BCC#(British Chromatic) as fluency in various keys on some of the hybrid diatonics that enable several keys to be played would result in utter confusion. I do however find that the British Chromatic and the continental C system can coexist fairly peacefully!. Probably because there is sufficient distance between the 2 systems making them in some ways like playing two completely different instruments as far as the treble end is concerned.
The B system and C system are in a sense completely different - but only just! hence the problem with playing both.
george
yc360 post_id=48918 time=1500846311 user_id=1464 said:
There currently is a C system Jupiter bayan for sale on Ebay (from a seller in France where everyone plays C system).
The ad is http://www.ebay.com/itm/Accordeon-bayan-Jupiter-/222563407417?hash=item33d1d01639:g:1iIAAOSw~rpZVLRq
(I am in no way affiliated with the seller. And I prefer the sound of an AKKO over Jupiter, but the difference is certainly smaller than between a bayan and an accordion.)
Should you be interested in a new AKKO, contact Oleg Lysenko (<EMAIL email=oleg.lysenko@gmail.com>oleg.lysenko@gmail.com</EMAIL>) who deals with AKKO and got me my C system AKKO. I think he currently has another C system AKKO (model super de luxe) available as well. We are talking about a lot more money than a used one of course, but still quite a bit cheaper than anything comparable from Italy.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that ,if you switch the 1st and 3rd reed blocks over on a 3 row C system accordion it would change it to a B system ( or was this the Absynthe playing tricks again :lol: ) Not sure what would happen with a 5 row though :?
Even if you cannot switch the reed blocks over you can (with a lot more work) switch the reeds over to the other reed block. The reason it does not work on a 5 row CBA is the position of the notes on the 4rd and 5th row. The notes are chromatic in the different diagonal direction. If you place the keyboard in front of you (looking left to right over the length of the keyboard) C system keyboard has the C on the 4rd row offset (by about half a key) to the right. (Same is true for the other notes.) If you look at the B on a B system keyboard, it has the B on the 4rd row offset (by about half a key) to the left. So on the levers going from the 1st row key to the axle/rod the 4rd row note is to the right of that lever on a C system and to the left of that lever on a B system keyboard. It would be a hell of a job to change this. My accordion repair teacher has done it once and said never again!Pipemajor post_id=48932 time=1500889757 user_id=2270 said:
Thanks Paul, it's obvious when it's pointed out. Another case of not engaging brain first :roll: .
The Jupiter on eBay France seems to have lots of switches on the treble side but only one on the bass side, why is that? Also, Mr. de Bra, what is the main difference between AKKO and Jupiter based on your experience? Can you point to a couple YouTube clips that shows the difference in sound qualities when you get around for it? Thank you in advance! If the Frech Jupiter is what it says is (in like new condition), it's indeed a lot cheaper than the Italians. Is AKKO relatively cheaper or more expensive than the Jupiters? Thank you all for your advise and insights! :ch
yc360 post_id=48954 time=1500967262 user_id=1464 said:
Every bayan has an interesting bass section, different from Italian accordions. I am showing a picture below. The lowest 13 notes (E-E) are on one block and these are LM reeds. Around this reed block there are two smaller side blocks (the picture only shows one, the other one obscured by the large block). Together these form the 4-reed base notes. Some bayans have register switches to enable/disable these smaller notes, thus allowing to switch between 2-reed (LM) and 4-reed (something like LMMH) base notes. The Jupiter on eBay seems to only have the large convertor switch but not the small switches that allow to switch between 2-reed and 4-reed base notes (you always get the 4-reed base notes).
http://wwwis.win.tue.nl/~debra/photos/divers2016/slides/PA059586.jpg>
What you might not immediately notice in the image (look on the left) is that after the lowest 13 notes the other reed blocks containing the remaining notes start with one note each (F and F#) that is LM and then all subsequent notes are LL.
This is very likely standard on almost all bayans because I believe they all use exactly the same reed plates.
With an Italian accordion you can have registers that are LM all the way from bottom to top or just L or just M, but with a bayan you do not have that. It almost doesnt matter which bayan you get, they are almost all the same.
There is an interesting video of a couple trying to sell an AKKO accordion. Never mind that it is a PA, you should listen to the part where they demonstrate the bass side which is identical to the bayan bass side.
<YOUTUBE id=rYwM-UqdNEk url=></YOUTUBE>
yc360 post_id=48954 time=1500967262 user_id=1464 said:
It is very hard to find truly comparable YouTube clips that show the difference in sound because the sound depends almost even more on the player than on the instrument (because the differences in the instruments are not that large) and often amplification is used and every clip also uses different recording equipment ranging from a phone to high-end video.
That being said... I have recently found two interesting clips of Alexandr Skliarov being jury member at a French competition and he did a guest performance on a borrowed instrument. So here is Alexandr playing on a borrowed Jupiter Bayan (probably recorded using a phone):
<YOUTUBE id=xDaebYCJoBk url=></YOUTUBE>
Here is a clip of another player playing the same piece on a Jupiter:
<YOUTUBE id=n5yEMJhPgso url=>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5yEMJhPgso</YOUTUBE>
And here is Alexandr playing the same piece on his AKKO:
<YOUTUBE id=QtO-wG0bsw0 url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtO-wG0bsw0>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtO-wG0bsw0</YOUTUBE>
I have no idea how the prices of AKKO and Jupiter compare and there now appear to be two factories of bayans that call themselves Jupiter and who knows which is which when you see an instrument... The exchange rate plays an important role in what a Russian accordion/bayan costs in the west. The best time to buy a new bayan was right after a number of boycots had started (no boycot on bayans though). I was too late for that but not much too late. Bayans are again more expensive now.
I listened to many many recordings on YouTube and I although I liked the sound of all bayans the AKKO was my prefered sound. Then my wife and I went to a concert where Oleg Lysenko played on the Jupiter bayan and Alexandr Skliarov played on the AKKO. That was even more convincing than any set of incomparable YouTube videos. But still the differences are not huge. And for a B system player it is not hard to find a bayan in the west. For a C system player the chances are 100 times lower. I could buy a (new) AKKO through Oleg so I jumped on it. Had I found a Jupiter in C system first I would also have considered that.
Zevy
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2013
- Messages
- 878
- Reaction score
- 713
debra post_id=48960 time=1500976960 user_id=605 said:
<FONT font=Garamond>I personally do not like the fact that Bayans have such growly low notes. I think of them as being so disparate as you have the bass notes so far removed (in tonality) from the treble side. Its like having a Double Bass instead of a cello in string quartet.
Thank you all again for your insight. I will check out the flips later tonight. I agree that the bayan has the double bass effect that is different from all other. The Italian sounds nicer and sweater. The c system Jupiter is quite expensive to my standard. I have to think hard about it
Zevy post_id=48968 time=1501000362 user_id=250 said:
Thats a really interesting observation for several reasons:
1) The bayans have the lowest 15 notes only in LM, not in L or LL, whereas the Italian boxes can play L all the way to the lowest notes, and because they dont use very large reeds they tend to growl more to my ear. Still, I do miss the ability to play just L and the Morino (N and S series) also misses this ability and I miss it there too. My Bugari can do the low notes in just L and does that rather well too.
2) Because the bass is LM it is more like the double bass and cello playing together.
3) There is clearly a difference in tonality between bass and treble side because the bass side has larger reeds but no cassotto and the right side has the smaller reeds and the cassotto. But in terms of frequency they are the same. The lowest note (an E) in LM on the treble side and on the bass side are just as low. (And if you want the lowest 15 notes in just L you can only do that on the treble side, not on the bass side.
So I dont know exactly what you mean by the bass notes so far removed from the treble side because the same notes are available on both sides.
My observation about Russian bayan version Italian CBA is that (apart from the low notes only being LM) on both left and righthand side the bayan plays the low notes more easily than an Italian CBA. The balance between left and right is hard to judge from watching videos because a lot depends on amplification (if there is any) and recording device and its position. There is also a lot of variation here between Italian CBA instruments, for instance with a Bugari being stronger on the bass side than a Pigini.
Of course tonality or timbre is purely a matter of taste. Its not that some is better in an absolute sense. Everyone has their own preference.
yc360 post_id=48969 time=1501001062 user_id=1464 said:
The asking price of that Jupiter is roughly half of the price of a new one, which is again about half the price of a new Bugari Bayan Prime. Good accordions are expensive and Italians even more so than Russian ones. If you prefer the Italian sound and are willing to spend the money for a really good used one there is the following ad: http://www.ebay.nl/itm/ACCORDION-fi...844236?hash=item25db592c0c:g:1k8AAOSwUKxYd-E2
which is a great Bugari bayan available from Italy. It has large multi-reed plates for the lower bass notes, but note that this does not make them bayan reeds. More expensive than the Jupiter still, but a really good deal for this Bugari bayan selecta (which needs a good tuning job).
The seller has this video posted:
<YOUTUBE id=qcTWARjgGuM url=></YOUTUBE>
and if you jump to the 1:00 mark you can hear him demo the treble L register and you can hear how the Bugari struggles with the very low notes on the keyboard side. At 4:45 in the video the same repeats on the bass side. Again, a bayan is much much more responsive, and that bass sound of the Bugari is what I would call growl much more than what a bayan does.
You see... in the end it is not really true that there is a lack of choice, but more that there is a lack of money...
Paul - Many thanks to you for taking the time to share so much interesting knowledge.
in the end it is not really true that there is a lack of choice, but more that there is a lack of money.... So true :roll: :evil: :hb
Yes, indeed. I found the Italians seem to know how to create colorful rich sound with the little reeds. It just never stop amazes me that with so many of these little reeds together, such rich and color sound can get created in so many different ways!
I heard great things about Bugari. This one certainly sounds outstanding. The bass on this one like the AKKO/Jupiter, has the feeling of pulling each low notes from the ground, double bass like in some ways like others have mentioned. Think about the size of the reed and the size of the double bass and the length of its string, I just cant help admiring this magic box!
I imagine to put this Bugari back to its old glory it deserves may cost some more pretty pennies on top of the eBay price...
Thank you so much for sharing!
Yes, indeed. I found the Italians seem to know how to create colorful rich sound with the little reeds. It just never stop amazes me that with so many of these little reeds together, such rich and color sound can get created in so many different ways!
I heard great things about Bugari. This one certainly sounds outstanding. The bass on this one like the AKKO/Jupiter, has the feeling of pulling each low notes from the ground, double bass like in some ways like others have mentioned. Think about the size of the reed and the size of the double bass and the length of its string, I just cant help admiring this magic box!
I imagine to put this Bugari back to its old glory it deserves may cost some more pretty pennies on top of the eBay price...
Thank you so much for sharing!
yc360 post_id=49000 time=1501088613 user_id=1464 said:
I can tell you only great things about Bugari. Between my wife and me we had two 285/ARS accordions (sold), a Bugari basson (sold), a 289/ARS/C5 (sold), then a 508/ARS/C (still have that), a 505/ARS (sold) and finally a 540/ARS/C (still have that). Each and every one of these were/are great accordions. We had this many because we went from PA to PA with convertor to CBA with and without convertor. The one for sale on Ebay is a higher end instrument than any Bugari we had, but all of them share the same wonderful sound. I especially like the L register best of all. The one in the ad really needs tuning and maybe the response of the lowest notes can be improved a bit as well because they are slow to respond.
Is this the best sound in the world? To my ears the only accordion that still sounds better than Bugari is the Hohner Gola. Really, that has the nicest M sound of all, and it is wonderfully balanced as well. The AKKO sound is similar to Bugari in the lower half of the keyboard, a bit sharper in the upper half. The one thing where the AKKO blows the Bugari away is the response of the low notes. It is amazing what low sound an accordion can produce with these tiny reeds compared to a double base, but the response of a Russian bayan is again amazing compared to even the most expensive Italian CBAs.
Coming back to the original question of the thread: not only should you not learn both B and C system, there is also no need for it: all instruments can be found in B and C system. The only need is money.
.... at a cost of course :lol: . Only if my wife could be more understanding like some lucky dudes here :? {} I'm sticking to c system for sure now!
Slightly off topic, with all the rave reviews of the super 6 and guilietti 127, how do they stand up to the Jupiter/Bugari/Gola? Just love to hear from the folks really in the know. Always a pleasure to hear from you. Thanks!
Slightly off topic, with all the rave reviews of the super 6 and guilietti 127, how do they stand up to the Jupiter/Bugari/Gola? Just love to hear from the folks really in the know. Always a pleasure to hear from you. Thanks!
yc360 post_id=49009 time=1501141956 user_id=1464 said:
If you are going off topic because your real intention is to find a great accordion at a bargain price you may be in for a long search or wait... sellers know they have a great accordion and wont sell cheap. (Only someone selling a stolen instrument might do that.) Im not too familiar with the super 6. The Giulietti 127 is a great accordion, especially if it is one made by Zero Sette (not the ones with the treble clef made by Serenelli). The special mellow Giulietti sound from the cassotto is enhanced by the characteristic Giulietti cover. The bass side is less special, it is a quality Italian 5-reed bass side.
- Status
Similar threads
