I'm stuck on glue

[Mummer1965]

Greetings!


I'm a day or two away from doing the restoration of my mid-'50s Crucianelli's keyboard. To those who have provided insight, guidance or an "Atta Boy", THANK YOU!

Overview & SitRep
All keys removed
Work area cleaned - no dead critters or crud - some diminutive dust bunnies
No catastrophic failures...
All WOOD parts & pieces are >98% "intact":
• Fine cracks - oodles (a technical term) - I'll gently "open" to allow insertion of a drop of slow set super glue - then quickly close & compress till set
• Chipped - worthy of "repair by wood filler" – sporadic small 3 mm chunks missing; inconsequential to performance - easy to fill
• Divots - repair is essential to preserve play "repair by larger applications of wood filler" – widest gap size = diameter of lead in a grade school wood pencil

I'm stuck on which glue to use to adhere "combs" to keyboard foundation...the combs align keys - and are never seen during play - or any "normal" situation

HIDE glue - has come highly rated for this task for a relatively slow cure rate, thin consistency - it will secure the comb's entire flat L & W w/out creating high and low spots.


Please share your thoughts...especially graet stories of success and sad tales that start out..."If only..."


THANK YOU!!

Gil a/k/a Mummer1965

 

[debra]

You could use "hide glue" but I have never done it. Assuming the keyboard "foundation" is wood and the combs are as well I would use Titebond III glue, which is very strong but give you time to adjust the position before it becomes impossible to move anything further. Position everything correctly, then apply pressure for several hours to give the glue time to set. (I tend to simply wait for 24 hours, and then it's always perfectly strong and won't come apart again.)

 

[Mummer1965]

You could use "hide glue" but I have never done it. Assuming the keyboard "foundation" is wood and the combs are as well I would use Titebond III glue, which is very strong but give you time to adjust the position before it becomes impossible to move anything further. Position everything correctly, then apply pressure for several hours to give the glue time to set. (I tend to simply wait for 24 hours, and then it's always perfectly strong and won't come apart again.)

Thank you for those insights. The "failure mechanism" that started this project was the complete release of the glue holding the comb to the foundation. I expected to see a "line" of glue that had been squished into a snake shape...no...there was no visible glue residue under the comb.
My reluctance to use a traditional "wood glue" is its physical thickness. If the application/drying process creates rock-hard ridge and valley glue accumulation, it could transform a challenge into a disaster.

I am hopeful that others will share insights on glue application, management and selection!

As Dean Martin admonished his viewers at show's end, "Keep those cards and letters comin' in."

 

[Dingo40]

"hide glue"

I don't think "hide glue" is waterproof: could become a problem?

 

[debra]

I don't think "hide glue" is waterproof: could become a problem?

Accordions in general are not waterproof. Almost everything in and on the accordion won't survive a good soaking...

 

[Glug]

Another vote for Titebond III.
When set it is basically stronger that the wood.

 

[Ventura]

first, Guitar and Violin wood instrument luthiers always
use simple (elmers genre) wood glue of one formulation or
another that is appropriate or personally favored.. this is
because all joints MUST be able to be re-opened at need
for future repairs.. say a soundboard cracks, you need to
remove it to repair it correctly then glue it back on to the
Violin frame

if someone used the wrong type of wood glue (like a recourcinol)
in the past, then the attempt to repair that actual ancient Stradavarius
would destroy it

Elmers type glues, afaik, actually work by re-viving the cellulose
cells so they literally reach out and shake hands between the
pieces being glued together, then they dry in that death grip
position., But when steamed or otherwise get infused with moisture,
they release that handshake. This pretty much only works on wood
or other natural cellulose organic material

afaik, this cellulose action does not need excess glue to work,
so the idea of it adding thickness to the joint should not be
a problem when used correctly

if you are absolutely certain you can position the comb with
perfection, then you can use a permanent wood glue
if you want to be careful, take Paul's suggestion of titebond
so you can quickly mount a couple keys and make sure
the front comb takes the forward keyguides perfectly

the pivot rods should align the big comb front
to back, though there may be a tiny bit of side to side
you will still have to finesse

good luck

 

[debra]

first, Guitar and Violin wood instrument luthiers always
use simple (elmers genre) wood glue of one formulation or
another that is appropriate or personally favored.. this is
because all joints MUST be able to be re-opened at need
for future repairs.. say a soundboard cracks, you need to
remove it to repair it correctly then glue it back on to the
Violin frame

...

Good to know! Thanks, Ventura. I didn't consider the need for taking glued bits apart for future repairs...
Good thing that violin and guitar repairers know this.

 

[Morgan28]

Hide glue is a great choice reversible, strong, and traditional for wood repairs. Just keep it warm for easy application and work quickly. For the combs, a thin, even layer will prevent uneven seating. If you’re nervous, test on scrap wood first. No horror stories here just take your time, and it’ll hold like it’s 1955 again. Good luck, and post pics when done.

 

[Mummer1965]

Thank you for your comments. I was intrigued by the idea of using Hide glue. Your comment "keep it warm" is interesting as no on else has offered that guidance. How warm is warm? The "work shop" a/k/a dining room runs in the mid 70s these days. If that is not sufficiently warm, my first idea is to keep the closed plastic jug in a small pan of appropriately warm H20. Towel dry the jug's exterior to avoid water dilution and "go to work".

Other input/guidance?

 

[Aaron]

Violin and guitar makers absolutely do not use Elmer's type glue. Violin makers use ONLY hot hide glue. Most guitar makers use titebond original. Some still use hide glue. Hide glue and Elmer's are two completely different glues.

Hide glue is great for wood, especially when you want a hard, strong joint. It is hard and brittle (crystalline)and transfers sound vibrations well. It has a unique trait that when it dries, it pulls the wood tighter together. It makes good tight joints, which is very desirable in these particular instruments since it doesn't dampen vibrations(minutely) like the softer glues. Its brittleness has an added bonus: it tends to allow seams to separate and fail before the wood of the instrument body starts splintering. A unique characteristic is that if a seam or joint separates, new hot glue will reactivate the old glue, meaning you do not necessarily have to clean off every remnant of the old glue . It will basically stick to itself, which is NOT the case with any of the more common glues. Basically, hide glue is great for instruments that are designed to be taken apart and repaired. It has other characteristics which are not really desirable, like very short open/working time, nongap filling, proper heat and moisture source to keep it ready for use, does not stick to metal (only for wood and porous things). The most obvious downside is that it must come from dead animals.

Not good for beginners or one-time users. If you want a protein based glue, try something like Stew Mac fish glue. It has urea or something added to extend the working time and keep it at room temp. Big note: shelf life is very important on any pre bottled protein glues like this. Prime example : Titebond hide glue fails a lot because it has been sitting on the shelf a lot. A friend of mine made a violin using this glue and the thing fell apart a short time later in high humidity.

 

[Ventura]

no doubt hide glue pre-dates the cellulose glues, and
obviously was in wide use for ages and ages, and no
doubt there are shops that still swear by it

the old radio cabinets from the 1920's and 30's that i rebuilt
were made with hide glue i believe.. the burgundy colored
stuff on all the joints and those angled corned braces and
all over the curved sections that i think were finished in a press..
but you know those joints had dried out after 50 years and most
of those angle braces would pop off if jolted at all, so i
would clean off all the old crystals and replace with the tan
cellulose glue.. they have held up well and i gigged regularly with
several of them (i had rebuilt them into PA speakers)

the luthiers i knew had moved on from hide glue, though occasionally
one would get some crystals and mix 'em up for a special job..
but i have seen them steam stuff apart and steam curves into
mandolins and work with all kinds of stuff, so i trust what they
demonstrated to me.. i walked through one workshop every
day on my way to the sales floor and was amazed many times
by the magic of the woodworking they did in there..
Old Sam built Violins from kits too when repair work left
him some free time

now Gene used an entirely different arsenal of glues
(he rebuilt Piano's) and that's where i first saw the Resorcinol
glue used.. he learned about it when he worked in the Sohmer
factory as an apprentice. The boast was you could submerge a
Sohmer and it would not come apart.. not even the felt hammers..

following expertise about hide-glue is clearly time tested
but perhaps a bit difficult to implement in modern times,,

 

[Mummer1965]

I am astounded, amazed and awestruck! This group is amazing in its willingness to share knowledge and experience and the often undisclosed subtleties of having "been there and done that".

It seems in life, every area of endeavor hides it's esoterica, effectively preserving it in a pristine manner for those special moments when using it glitters.

My friend Ventura enlarged my lexicon by introducing a word that opened a door. I learned that a luthier is a craft person who builds or repairs some/all (?) string instruments. To my shock, it is NOT a part of an accordion, yet the luthierr's skills have direct application in my current project. Other glue users from radio-cabinet restorers to piano "cabineteers" to a cautious commentator who wrote about the perils glue encounters when fully immersed all of you have offered clarifications, nuance and advanced chemistry comments.

Aaron offers..."Not good for beginners or one-time users." He mentions maintaining an appropriate "working temperature".

These and other responses beg for clarification...

• What is the ideal temp for hide glue application?
• How is that maintained...put the container (plastic bottle) in a pan of hot/warm water?
• What ELSE should this beginner and one-time user know that you have filed away in your cerebral file cabinet?

THANK YOU ALL!!

Mummer 1965

Gil

 

[Dingo40]

How is that maintained...put the container (plastic bottle) in a pan of hot/warm water?

Traditionally, in a "glue-pot", or "Bain-Marie", a double bottomed kettle (easily improvised). As well as needing to be hot it mustn't be burned!
It's applied with the same kind of brush as is used for basting roasting meat or glazing pastry.
Once applied (to both pieces) these are rubbed together and clamped overnight to set.
I'm pretty sure, at a pinch, you would be able to substitute cooking gelatine for the active ingredient.

 

[Aaron]

Yes, water bath to heat the glue. Adjustable hotplate or a dedicated hide glue pot, available from some luthier suppliers. I use a miniature potpourri heater plugged into a rheostat. Put an inch or two in the bottom as the bath, then set a small jar of glue in it. Do not let the bath run dry! I think about 150 degrees F, not to exceed 165. My potpourri heater hits 180, so I have to lower it a bit with the rheostat. You would have to research those numbers to confirm. No metal in the hide glue(like paint brush ferrule), it can interact and cause discoloration or some such. Water to glue ratio is not critical, but important. If too thin, let it evaporate over time, and it will self adjust. Too thick, just add water. Some luthier choose to avoid tap water due to chemicals, although this might be nitpicking. Dry clamp the parts before gluing for a test run. Speed is critical here, as you really only have 30 to 60 seconds to get fully in place. In some cases, clamping is unnecessary, like gluing well-fitted violin plates together, since the glue contracts a bit while drying. This is what is called a "rubbed joint". I would only avoid clamping in specific cases. You can also preheat your wood pieces a little using a hot air gun or clothes iron or even hair dryer to extend the working time a little. Excess glue can be easily removed with a damp cloth. Alcohol is the solvent for glue, but be extremely careful as it likes to damage some finishes. Expansion and contraction of wood over a few years can cause the joint to start separating. This is due to the glue being so hard and brittle. (PVA glues like titebond are softer/more flexible, so they give when the wood expands). You can make your own hide glue using animal skin. There are several good videos on YouTube of all this stuff. I would advise watching an hour or two of these to see the various aspects as research.

You can use plain store bought gelatin, it is basically the same as commercial hide glue, just finely ground. Not many realize this. There is a video somewhere of a guy building a guitar(?) using gelatin. Dingo said in a pinch, but I would think it is totally fine to use in any situation where you would use commercial hide glue.

 

[Aaron]

Rubbing not necessary for most things, it is really only used for specific situations.

Test all of this on scrap wood before doing anything with an expensive or irreplaceable project.