how do I make sure my muscle memory doesnt go to waist

[accordian]

hello

so I was thinking I spend a decent
amount of time in my opinion practicing
as well as just playing but after reading
through some of my previous posts
i'd like to ask a few questions if thats
ok.

so I will practice for say half an hour
an hour or some other time and after
a while of mindlessly practising bass
jumps for however long it becomes a
ear kill to me and others anyway my
question is I practice so much now
that it's sorta like this

play a song - 2 min

try the jump again - 30+ min

as I read in my previous post it takes
years to build muscle memory and while
I spose good time to start I practice so often
and really dont see any results what so ever.

as well as this where I hear to build muscle
memory the action needs to be practiced
correctly evertime I play the song requiring the
jumps and fail the jump does that set me back?
ive been able to play country roads perfectly for
a while not with luck but genuinely could do it however
failed a couple of times and now im back to square 1.

one last quick question

muscle memory works like this. if you compare it
to putting in code for a variable on a computer program
then the putting the data in variable is the practising part
then using the variable is the playing part in that you just
do the action without effort compared to when practicing
(no imagining where my hand should be when doing the jump
or anything like that; just going for it) and the data in the variable
is automatically selected by the brain.

sorry for such a lengthy post it's just as said ive found my progress in
some places have reversed and I want to know why, how to avoid it as
well as if im using muscle memory correctly and if I have the right idea as to
how it works.

thanks to all you guys. you have all managed to help me so much so far.
cheers!

 

[debra]

No worries. When you are developing finger and hand muscle memory it will not travel down to your waist!

With the bass jumps there isn't only the memory you are developing of how far apart the bass buttons are but also relative and absolute positioning. The basses stay where they are so you are not only learning to jump from one to another but you are also learning where the basses are in absolute terms. On an accordion the C bass is often marked with a dimple or jewel but you will find that with practice you can insert your hand in the belt and move it to the C bass without touching/feeling for any other bass on the way. It's only when you switch to another accordion that you have to relearn the absolute position.

The routine of 2 minutes playing a song, 30 minutes practicing bass jumps and then 15 minutes or so posting on this forum (you forgot that part) is a bit hard on yourself. You can practice bass jumps also while playing songs with bass jumps so you are learning to do it more and more automatically while thinking more about the melody you are playing with your right hand. But in the end it is practice that makes perfect. Even after almost 50 years of playing I still occasionally get a bass jump wrong.

 

[jozz]

you can easily let a piece rest for a day or two and then come back to it

that said, are you not trying to take giant steps here, where baby steps are more appropriate? I can understand you want to play the cool stuff, but you might be better of with a year of playing just 3 chord songs

 

[JerryPH]

I let Czardas rest for 35 years and was amazed that portions of that song were playable almost on day 1 after not playing for 35 years where playing "twinkle twinkle little star" was near impossible to play on that first day.

Done properly, muscle memory, or a big part of it, lasts a lifetime, however, here is a thought... instead of wasting time wondering how to create muscle memory, how about just practicing, learning and playing. Stop talking about it... start DOING it! Look back in 20 years and just experience it. Worrying about it at this level is a complete waste of time.

Walk, then run... don't worry about how you can run a marathon now, you are still trying to walk a block, master that first! Everyone has to pass through the same path, there is no magical way around hard work!

 

[george garside]

Muscle memory as such does not exist for the simple reason that muscles don't have a memory!

It is in fact the autonomic ( autopilot) part of the brain that does the remembering , sending the appropriate instructions down the arm , through the hand and ultimately to the fingers . The autonomic section of the brain is 'programmed' by repetition of a particular action in just the same way as a baby learns to walk, talk etc etc.

george (in pedantic mode)

 

[StargazerTony]

One must remember that muscle memory is a mental process, not a physical one and happens while you are sleeping. In addition, muscle memory doesn't care what it's remembering. If one plays something incorrectly, it will happily remember that, as well.

 

[accordian]

you can easily let a piece rest for a day or two and then come back to it

that said, are you not trying to take giant steps here, where baby steps are more appropriate? I can understand you want to play the cool stuff, but you might be better of with a year of playing just 3 chord songs

well see thats the thing I can
play pretty much anything that is
3 chord (pretty much due to eg. a
really fast song on keyboard)
jeff recommended to start playing
songs with 2 chord button jump eg.
c to d. because of this i have learned
road to lisdoonvarna which is a fun
one. (thanks jeff and everyone suggesting
2 button jumps) but now the problem is this.
I dont know any songs I like that I can learn in
order say a 3 button jump then 4 , 5 etc.

and so this is the problem im currently at.
and to progress my skill level and what im
capable of playing further I will go to many
lengths explaining the 30 mins of eg. d to b

 

[accordian]

No worries. When you are developing finger and hand muscle memory it will not travel down to your waist!

With the bass jumps there isnt only the memory you are developing of how far apart the bass buttons are but also relative and absolute positioning. The basses stay where they are so you are not only learning to jump from one to another but you are also learning where the basses are in absolute terms. On an accordion the C bass is often marked with a dimple or jewel but you will find that with practice you can insert your hand in the belt and move it to the C bass without touching/feeling for any other bass on the way. Its only when you switch to another accordion that you have to relearn the absolute position.

The routine of 2 minutes playing a song, 30 minutes practicing bass jumps and then 15 minutes or so posting on this forum (you forgot that part) is a bit hard on yourself. You can practice bass jumps also while playing songs with bass jumps so you are learning to do it more and more automatically while thinking more about the melody you are playing with your right hand. But in the end it is practice that makes perfect. Even after almost 50 years of playing I still occasionally get a bass jump wrong.

see thats the thing though I know its like
which ever way I do it as long as I repeat
the jump but the thing is (and this is why I
gave an analogy of muscle memory) when
I try to just play it and let my brain automatically
find and use the data required for the jump its often
incorrect and so I will then play like said 30+ mins
of me practising. I do this because I hear in order
for your brain to use automatically and have the correct data
it needs to be repeated a lot which with me practicing while
playing doesnt go so well.

as said my accordion is an lmmh. I didnt know rubbish could
sound so good lol

but in a serious note like said im desperate to improve and so I practice
a hell of alot rather than play and a bit dramatic but it kills ya.

today bought Palmer Hughes book 4 and 5 one on kindle the other
paperback hopefully this will help me as I will now try to go from 4 or 5
and complete the series I can imagine thats no easy task but if it helps
me improve then lets go

finally managed to get a teacher the problem is his timezone is est and mine
not so much. and so its a bit awkward especially with work to find time.

 

[accordian]

Muscle memory as such does not exist for the simple reason that muscles dont have a memory!

It is in fact the autonomic ( autopilot) part of the brain that does the remembering , sending the appropriate instructions down the arm , through the hand and ultimately to the fingers . The autonomic section of the brain is programmed by repetition of a particular action in just the same way as a baby learns to walk, talk etc etc.

george (in pedantic mode)

so rather than feeling whether
I can remember how to do it
its just a matter of go for it
and if I fail practice some more
and then just go for it again?

thanks

 

[Zevy]

By not eating too much :mrgreen:

 

[accordian]

I let Czardas rest for 35 years and was amazed that portions of that song were playable almost on day 1 after not playing for 35 years where playing twinkle twinkle little star was near impossible to play on that first day.

Done properly, muscle memory, or a big part of it, lasts a lifetime, however, here is a thought... instead of wasting time wondering how to create muscle memory, how about just practicing, learning and playing. Stop talking about it... start DOING it! Look back in 20 years and just experience it. Worrying about it at this level is a complete waste of time.

Walk, then run... dont worry about how you can run a marathon now, you are still trying to walk a block, master that first! Everyone has to pass through the same path, there is no magical way around hard work!

the hard work is there its just
without a teacher Im not really sure
what im doing and so 1 minute ive
got take me home country roads 100%
and can emphasise different parts etc. and
then I cant do it what so ever and it has been months
since I could play the song. and this is the furthest on a
non 3 chord song I have ever gotten. as for lambada ive
been practising for months and months to the point where
hearing the song isnt fun any more but is really annoying.

im fine with walking as long as im making progress the thing is
im still stuck on 3 chord songs and while I have no problem with
them there are so many other songs Id like to try and cant get any
where with them. 3 chords songs for me playing sound great.
anything else sounds like an accordion fell into a lake with a strong
water current lol

as said I will play 1 song and then practice for 30 mins and so its very frustrating


thanks I know your trying to stop me talking and doing it but
the thing is I dont really know what im doing as said I progress
and the fall back again; its very frustrating

thanks!

 

[accordian]

By not eating too much :mrgreen:

ya got me there

 

[accordian]

One must remember that muscle memory is a mental process, not a physical one and happens while you are sleeping. In addition, muscle memory doesnt care what its remembering. If one plays something incorrectly, it will happily remember that, as well.

thats why I practice after.
if I get the jump wrong I spend
a lot of time on that jump. and
even if I get it right but I was close
to being wrong eg. my finger nudged
one to far in up or down sense then I
will practice and I try my best to try and get it
correct.

this is why I asked recently for any tips just in
case theres any info you sorta learn as you
go on overtime and it would help my skill
progress.

 

[JerryPH]

the hard work is there its just without a teacher Im not really sure what im doing...

So what does that have to do with muscle memory? If a teacher is what you are lacking, find a teacher, either locally or via skype. I am sure this has been discussed before.

and so 1 minute ive got take me home country roads 100% and can emphasise different parts etc. and then I cant do it what so ever and it has been months since I could play the song. and this is the furthest on a non 3 chord song I have ever gotten.

Key words here... MONTHS. Try playing for 20 years, then you will have something to complain about. You are a beginner looking for shortcuts... there are NO shortcus, you have to put in YEARS... MANY YEARS! You have to play songs HUNDREDS of times over a period of years after learning and perfecting them to even begin to see muscle memory, much less actually have any that is evidently obvious.

thanks I know your trying to stop me talking and doing it but the thing is I dont really know what im doing as said I progress
and the fall back again; its very frustrating

Here is an insight for you... It is the same for everyone... the difference is no one else except you is complaining about it. Most who are serious work through it, put in the time and effort and in 10-20 years look back and smile at how far they have come. You dont even have ONE SINGLE YEAR, and you ask why things dont happen... its because you havent paid your dues. You say you are lost... its because you dont have someone to guide you, but then dont put in the effort to find a teacher.

When I was at my prime, I played 6 hours a day, Monday to Friday... and that is on top of full time school, sports like hockey and martial arts. Weekends were 12 hours a day... minimum. You put in that amount of time... you put in that level of devotion, and intensity you cut down the number of years it takes you to get good.

It is a common theme that if you want to become good... REALLY good... that you must invest 10,000 hours... but not just 10,000 hours of anything, but 10,000 hours of focused directed, goal oriented practice. We all know that no one can focus for that much every day, so 60-75% of that time, every day, was spent doing the less intense things like exercises. Things that I could do that would better me technically so that when the songs came, I did not waste time practicing to do trills or scales or arpeggios, I focused on the songs, not the technicalities.

There are two possible futures for you... first is you quitting very soon, quite frustrated, and letting us all listen to you about how frustrated you are, how hard you tried and nothing coming of it. #2... of course you might buckle down, find a teacher and devote yourself... but judging by your past actions... I dont see this happening, if I may be so bold to say.

One last time... there is no magic recipe to getting good, other than putting in the time and effort (reminder: that is DECADES OF TIME, not months or weeks!). Tossing in a good teacher saves a lot of time and reduces the beginner mistakes that become ingrained if left to ones own.

 

[Waldo]

Ya' might try sit-ups.

 

[jozz]

when I try to just play it and let my brain automatically
find and use the data required for the jump its often
incorrect and so I will then play like said 30+ mins
of me practising.

I do this because I hear in order
for your brain to use automatically and have the correct data
it needs to be repeated a lot which with me practicing while
playing doesnt go so well.

I dont want to over-analyse this, but just to be a bit constructive here:

What youre saying there about your brain automatically finding the spots after long repetition is not necessarily the way to success.

I believe if you really are mindlessly repeating those jumps for half an hour each day it will get you to 80% accuracy but this is like testing in a laboratory, this is not the real thing.

Its like playing some music from sheet 1000x times and then playing it from heart. You will get a long way, but you do not know what you are doing. And if something disturbs your sequence youre screwed.

And this particular skill will indeed go to waste after some time. While really anchoring stuff the right way in your brain with the right method, stays a whole lot longer.

 

[colinm]

Accordian, are you really practicing bass jumps for 30 minutes , i find it difficult to practice the same thing for more than 5 minutes, and if you are practicing you must do it slow enough to get it right every time otherwise your brain is learning the wrong thing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[accordian]

Accordian, are you really practicing bass jumps for 30 minutes , i find it difficult to practice the same thing for more than 5 minutes, and if you are practicing you must do it slow enough to get it right every time otherwise your brain is learning the wrong thing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

yep I am and it kills to hear c to b
for that amount of time

I dont do it really fast
I dont worry bout speed to much
but I will make sure that im hitting
it right rather than oops theres a wrong
one oh well I will just play it and keep going
if I hit it wrong then I will stop try and get an
image for the position of my hands and then
try to jump to it after that I will again continue.
or sometimes I will try and feel how far up or down
it is by where the buttons are eg. bb is further
than f etc.

 

[accordian]

when I try to just play it and let my brain automatically
find and use the data required for the jump its often
incorrect and so I will then play like said 30+ mins
of me practising.

I do this because I hear in order
for your brain to use automatically and have the correct data
it needs to be repeated a lot which with me practicing while
playing doesnt go so well.

I dont want to over-analyse this, but just to be a bit constructive here:

What youre saying there about your brain automatically finding the spots after long repetition is not necessarily the way to success.

I believe if you really are mindlessly repeating those jumps for half an hour each day it will get you to 80% accuracy but this is like testing in a laboratory, this is not the real thing.

Its like playing some music from sheet 1000x times and then playing it from heart. You will get a long way, but you do not know what you are doing. And if something disturbs your sequence youre screwed.

And this particular skill will indeed go to waste after some time. While really anchoring stuff the right way in your brain with the right method, stays a whole lot longer.

whats the right method?

 

[jozz]

My opinion?

A teacher might be able to accelerate the process with a good assessment of your goals and current capabilities.

But if you stay on your own:

Play the easier stuff for a longer period and use that as a starting point to take on the stuff with the jumps. Just find some music with the right amount of chord changes that you can manage and go up from there. End of the year you should feel way more comfortable with those basses.