Help! Tone on piano side of piano accordion much weaker than button side

[AccordionCol]

Hi all

I am a piano tuner but am new to accordion repair and accordions in general.
I am currently tuning a piano accordion.

I have found when playing the piano side alone the tone is very strong and clear but when combined with the button side the sound of the piano side gets drowned out and many of the notes don’t respond as well as when played alone.

Can anyone offer suggestions as to why this may be?

 

[Dingo40]

Can't wait to hear too!

 

[debra]

First thing to check out is how the accordion sounds when someone else is listening. The balance between the treble and bass side can only be truly heard by the audience, not by the player. Accordions are (supposed to be) designed so that the sound that comes out from the treble side (which is closest to your head) is diverted away from the player and towards the audience as much as possible, to prevent the player from going deaf (from excessive sound volume). As a result the player does not hear the balance very well.
However, the notes should still respond the same way when the bellows are used with the same amount of force (thus forcing the same amount of air through the treble notes, while forcing much more air through the much larger bass reeds). If you are simply aiming for the same amount of total sound volume then the treble is actually played more softly, hence the problem with note response.
That said... there are large differences in the balance between treble and bass between brands and models, as well as large differences in the total amount of sound produced for roughly the same amount of force.

 

[JerryPH]

On a Stradella accordion, there is also the inherent function that the “piano side” is the star of the show and so if playing with a single Reed, it would be overpowered by a loud bass, that is way more a negative. Your thought process is as of a piano tuner, you cannot apply those traits to an accordion… because it is not a piano.

 

[AccordionCol]

On a Stradella accordion, there is also the inherent function that the “piano side” is the star of the show and so if playing with a single Reed, it would be overpowered by a loud bass, that is way more a negative. Your thought process is as of a piano tuner, you cannot apply those traits to an accordion… because it is not a piano.

First thing to check out is how the accordion sounds when someone else is listening. The balance between the treble and bass side can only be truly heard by the audience, not by the player. Accordions are (supposed to be) designed so that the sound that comes out from the treble side (which is closest to your head) is diverted away from the player and towards the audience as much as possible, to prevent the player from going deaf (from excessive sound volume). As a result the player does not hear the balance very well.
However, the notes should still respond the same way when the bellows are used with the same amount of force (thus forcing the same amount of air through the treble notes, while forcing much more air through the much larger bass reeds). If you are simply aiming for the same amount of total sound volume then the treble is actually played more softly, hence the problem with note response.
That said... there are large differences in the balance between treble and bass between brands and models, as well as large differences in the total amount of sound produced for roughly the same amount of force.

Ok, thanks for the response. I had a feeling what you suggested regarding balance maybe have been the case and if I’m understanding correctly the response issue may be more due to my playing skills (or lack of) than the accordion itself.

 

[AccordionCol]

On a Stradella accordion, there is also the inherent function that the “piano side” is the star of the show and so if playing with a single Reed, it would be overpowered by a loud bass, that is way more a negative. Your thought process is as of a piano tuner, you cannot apply those traits to an accordion… because it is not a piano.

Sorry Jerry but I find your comment confusing and am unsure of the point you’re making.
Are you saying due to the fact that it’s just a single read it is obvious it would be overpowered by the bass and that’s just how it is? As opposed to a piano where volume balance is achieved by adding extra strings in the treble.

 

[JIM D.]

What is the make & model of your accordion ??

 

[AccordionCol]

What is the make & model of your accordion ??

Paolo Soprani, I have disassembled it but haven’t been able to find a model number.
Has tremolo on treble side that can’t be turned off.
Has two switches on treble side, one to turn on bass octave and one to turn off bass octave.

 

[debra]

Paolo Soprani, I have disassembled it but haven’t been able to find a model number.
Has tremolo on treble side that can’t be turned off.
Has two switches on treble side, one to turn on bass octave and one to turn off bass octave.

Well... this accordion has just one or two reeds playing in the right hand, and no tone chamber to boost the volume and make the sound more mellow. The bass is 4 voice, meaning that 4 reeds, some with more powerful low sound, are playing at the same time. The bass side produces more volume than the treble side. The construction of an accordion is such that the bass sound is muffled to some extent (by not having large holes to let the sound through) and such that the treble sound is let out as well as possible (by having an open grille). Each accordion has different balance between treble and bass, and that balance is heard differently by the player and by the audience. What you cannot do on an accordion (and can on a piano) is control the volume of treble and bass separately. This is why even when music is simple you can achieve a much dynamically richer sound with a small accordion ensemble than with a single player doing everything at once on a single accordion.

 

[AccordionCol]

Well... this accordion has just one or two reeds playing in the right hand, and no tone chamber to boost the volume and make the sound more mellow. The bass is 4 voice, meaning that 4 reeds, some with more powerful low sound, are playing at the same time. The bass side produces more volume than the treble side. The construction of an accordion is such that the bass sound is muffled to some extent (by not having large holes to let the sound through) and such that the treble sound is let out as well as possible (by having an open grille). Each accordion has different balance between treble and bass, and that balance is heard differently by the player and by the audience. What you cannot do on an accordion (and can on a piano) is control the volume of treble and bass separately. This is why even when music is simple you can achieve a much dynamically richer sound with a small accordion ensemble than with a single player doing everything at once on a single accordion.

I see, thank you very much for the info

 

[JIM D.]

From your Pic' I can't see if your bass plate has vent holes. If it does try taping them closed.

 

[AccordionCol]

Thanks Jim, yes it does. I’ll give that a try

 

[Dingo40]

Here's an earlier thread on the subject:

A question of balance

No matter how much I try, to my ear I always need more volume from the right hand and less from the left. I'm on a 120-bass Hohner Musette with three bass registers and the expected range of treble couplers. If, for instance, I'm doing a klezmer piece with a drone bass and single-note melody...

www.accordionists.info

 

[Dingo40]

Another take on the topic:

 

[AccordionCol]

Great vid! Thanks dingo

 

[Dingo40]

The long answer:

Ways you can vary your accordion bass to create an easier to listen to sound

Accordion players make your audiences happy by using these many ideas for accordion players to improve the sound of their playing, with better integration of bass and treble, original bass variations and much more

www.accordionwise.com

 

[Mike K]

Never tried it but would putting felt over some holes on bass side reduce volume on that side? Simple solution if that would work.

 

[JerryPH]

Are you saying due to the fact that it’s just a single read it is obvious it would be overpowered by the bass and that’s just how it is? As opposed to a piano where volume balance is achieved by adding extra strings in the treble.

No, I think Paul mentioned it clearer... this is not a piano, you cannot use piano tuning methods to tune an accordion. First the position of the player is not really optimal to hearing the accordion. You would ideally get someone to play and you stand in the area of the "audience" to be able to make an accurate assessment of left hand and right hand balance.

Second, you mention some notes not coming out clearer. On free reed instruments, there is something that is called "choking" at high pressures or not sounding due to lower pressures. Not including the evident possibility of the reed not being clean, this is regulated by a technique called "voicing" and is controlled by the spacing and position of the vibrating reed against the surrounding enclosure. Paul can tell you that this is a very intricate adjustment and if done wrong, there is no going back unless you replace the entire reed.

 

[JerryPH]

Never tried it but would putting felt over some holes on bass side reduce volume on that side? Simple solution if that would work.

I don't think that would work very well... I'd imagine that if all the holes were covered with varying thicknesses of material, that this would produce better results (more control based on how much sound overall was blocked vs covering some holes up). Just my 2 cents.

 

[debra]

Never tried it but would putting felt over some holes on bass side reduce volume on that side? Simple solution if that would work.

Felt over some holes on the bass side certainly helps reduce overall volume. You have to be careful though that the bass mechanism does not touch the felt. There is often very little room between the mechanism and the outer shell (with the holes that let the sound come out). Covering the holes with tape (I have used black electrical tape) works even better. My Russian bayan even comes with a "sordino" which is a metal plate (with holes) that you can slide over the outer metal plate to cover or uncover the holes. It really changes the volume and also timbre of the bass notes.
I have also used felt under the grille of accordions. If you for instance have an accordion where the reed blocks are laid out such that the reed banks in sequence are H-M-L-L-M-H with the first H row partly covered by the register mechanism and the H row on the other end just under the most completely open part of the grille then the first H row (typically black keys) will sound weak and mellow compared to the other H row (typically white keys) that then sound stronger and brighter. The result is that when using H, as for instance in the MH register the timbre is very different between white and black keys. Putting a strip of felt under the grille, over the second set of H reeds, evens out the sound quite a bit.
(This H-M-L-L-M-H sequence is what my bass accordion has. A similar problem appears in the Hohner Atlantic and in all non-cassotto Giulietti accordions.)