Getting bass midi installed when there's no midi suppliers or installers in your country

[accordionmaniac]

Hi,

I'm new here, and have been playing piano accordion (and a bit of steirische) for 20 years. I play a 96 bass Fismen piano accordion, I live near Melbourne, Australia, where we have at least 2 really good repairers, but having talked to several repairers, suppliers and accordionists around the country, there's no one interested to install midi into an accordion if I were to buy a kit, and no midi supplier overseas willing to sell a kit without me sending my accordion to them for installation. Given the shipping costs and general effort associated with sending accordions overseas for this sort of work, I've sort of given up on my search (not worth it for me unless I could get it done locally), but recently came across this forum and thought I'd give it one more shot. Also emailed a few vendors like Midrig in Scotland, Simpl in Germany and ST in Austria, waiting to hear back from them. For the midi to work, I'm open to even getting a used iPad and using the Turboreini app, since it's very appropriate to the music that I play - but I think my biggest challenge is simply getting the bass midi installed.
And for the midi itself, I'm not looking for anything fancy like bellow sensors, just plain midi for the bass notes and the chords.

My question: given the advancements in midi systems and components in recent years, and the variety of products that have entered the market, does anyone know of a midi system that might be easy enough for in general any repairer (or even not a repairer) to install into the bass side of an accordion without prior experience with midi, and a vendor that is so confident with the ease, that they'd be willing to sell it to me despite being in Australia?

Thanks.

 

[Chris Laarman]

Hi,

I'm new here, and have been playing piano accordion (and a bit of steirische) for 20 years. I play a 96 bass Fismen piano accordion, I live near Melbourne, Australia, where we have at least 2 really good repairers, but having talked to several repairers, suppliers and accordionists around the country, there's no one interested to install midi into an accordion if I were to buy a kit, and no midi supplier overseas willing to sell a kit without me sending my accordion to them for installation. Given the shipping costs and general effort associated with sending accordions overseas for this sort of work, I've sort of given up on my search (not worth it for me unless I could get it done locally), but recently came across this forum and thought I'd give it one more shot. Also emailed a few vendors like Midrig in Scotland, Simpl in Germany and ST in Austria, waiting to hear back from them. For the midi to work, I'm open to even getting a used iPad and using the Turboreini app, since it's very appropriate to the music that I play - but I think my biggest challenge is simply getting the bass midi installed.
And for the midi itself, I'm not looking for anything fancy like bellow sensors, just plain midi for the bass notes and the chords.

My question: given the advancements in midi systems and components in recent years, and the variety of products that have entered the market, does anyone know of a midi system that might be easy enough for in general any repairer (or even not a repairer) to install into the bass side of an accordion without prior experience with midi, and a vendor that is so confident with the ease, that they'd be willing to sell it to me despite being in Australia?

Thanks.

1) I don't think that progress in MIDI-for-accordions would amount to "shrinking a blackbox" in a way that suits you. It would still need sensors for the air flow, a communications unit (for a jack, a wireless transmitter, or both), the wires between those, and likely some controls (knobs, buttons). The size of the conversion blackbox would hardly matter. - So I could also imagine the repair people refuse to accept responsability for mounting the elements of an unknown magic kit in someone's accordion. They may even have the knowledge that no accordion that they have serviced would have room for the elements of that MIDI kit (or could accept the operation without damage).

2) Do you yourself have a clear-enough idea of what the MIDI protocol is, and how you'd use it?

3) In the end, your best (or least-bad) option might be to look for an existing MIDI accordion: a real accordion with the MIDI stuff already built in (maybe even by design) or a synthesizer in the guise of an accordion.

Disclaimer:

4) I have both an acoustic piano accordion and a MIDI button accordion, but these are little more than signs of interests and ambitions. The former is the biggest of their house-brand line, the latter is the smallest of that product line.

 

[debra]

...

My question: given the advancements in midi systems and components in recent years, and the variety of products that have entered the market, does anyone know of a midi system that might be easy enough for in general any repairer (or even not a repairer) to install into the bass side of an accordion without prior experience with midi, and a vendor that is so confident with the ease, that they'd be willing to sell it to me despite being in Australia?
...

Regardless the advances in midi systems over the past decades, every midi system requires that you can capture movement of either buttons (pistons) or pallets (valves). They can use optical sensors, magnets, hall sensors, you name it, but in all cases it is a bit of an invasive installation and may require disassembly of most or all of the bass mechanism in order to place the sensors. So I really believe that you should leave it to a professional accordion repairer with experience in midi installation.
As you only want bass midi installed you can ship just the bass compartment to a repairer, which is more feasible than shipping the whole accordion. I have no such experience and would not easily be tempted to just try it by myself, even though I can disassemble and reassemble bass mechanisms.

 

[Chris Laarman]

Hi,

I'm new here, and have been playing piano accordion (and a bit of steirische) for 20 years. I play a 96 bass Fismen piano accordion, I live near Melbourne, Australia, where we have at least 2 really good repairers, but having talked to several repairers, suppliers and accordionists around the country, there's no one interested to install midi into an accordion if I were to buy a kit, and no midi supplier overseas willing to sell a kit without me sending my accordion to them for installation. Given the shipping costs and general effort associated with sending accordions overseas for this sort of work, I've sort of given up on my search (not worth it for me unless I could get it done locally), but recently came across this forum and thought I'd give it one more shot. Also emailed a few vendors like Midrig in Scotland, Simpl in Germany and ST in Austria, waiting to hear back from them. For the midi to work, I'm open to even getting a used iPad and using the Turboreini app, since it's very appropriate to the music that I play - but I think my biggest challenge is simply getting the bass midi installed.
And for the midi itself, I'm not looking for anything fancy like bellow sensors, just plain midi for the bass notes and the chords.

My question: given the advancements in midi systems and components in recent years, and the variety of products that have entered the market, does anyone know of a midi system that might be easy enough for in general any repairer (or even not a repairer) to install into the bass side of an accordion without prior experience with midi, and a vendor that is so confident with the ease, that they'd be willing to sell it to me despite being in Australia?

Thanks.

In addition to my previous answer:

Regarding the iPad you mentioned: I think that the large 12.9" model might be worth considering (more than smaller models). You might then check the App Shop for the products of developer Michael Eskin.

Me, I have had the idea of using some sort of harness to carry a large iPad on my chest. (I do have a snare drum and a matching marching-band harness.) I could use it for "playing" the accordion and washboard apps I have. I also have several sizes of active loudspeakers that can run on batteries.

 

[Ventura]

Technical Specs – MidiAdd

this device has the MIDI stuffed into something that plugs in
instead of the old Cordovox cable

the fella that thought these us is named Lino

he is in Australia

i think that may be a webpage that will get you to him

he also offered his circuitry as a separate kit, and it is
a simple, inexpensive board with solder points for each note

you can add MIDI bass fairly easily if you are not worried about
Velocity, and can be happy with simple note-on-note-off switching

his Kit is compatibile with any kind of contacts.. from Springs to
sensors.. i personally recommend those small glass encapsulated reed-switches
and little magnets to activate them.. 9 volt battery powers it just fine

i havn't talked to him in over a decade, so i do not know current
status or actual location, but if you poke around the Bush you should
find someone who knows him.. he converted a slew of old Farfisa transichords
for players in Australia too, and probably a few of those are still around

good luck

 

[Chris Laarman]

Technical Specs – MidiAdd

this device has the MIDI stuffed into something that plugs in
instead of the old Cordovox cable

the fella that thought these us is named Lino

he is in Australia

i think that may be a webpage that will get you to him

he also offered his circuitry as a separate kit, and it is
a simple, inexpensive board with solder points for each note

you can add MIDI bass fairly easily if you are not worried about
Velocity, and can be happy with simple note-on-note-off switching

his Kit is compatibile with any kind of contacts.. from Springs to
sensors.. i personally recommend those small glass encapsulated reed-switches
and little magnets to activate them.. 9 volt battery powers it just fine

i havn't talked to him in over a decade, so i do not know current
status or actual location, but if you poke around the Bush you should
find someone who knows him.. he converted a slew of old Farfisa transichords
for players in Australia too, and probably a few of those are still around

good luck

Well, this does sound positive for the OP (accorfionmania).

Two remarks I feel like adding:

1) Velocity is a property of every Note On and Note Off message, so those messages sent would have a fixed value for it. There may be ways of replacing this with a variable value (I could think of an expression pedal as part of the "solution").
Note that (from memory!) the Expression control in MIDI (that such pedal would be designed to vary) influences Volume, not the emotion evoked by Velocity. - Imagine somebody counting like a metronome, with the accents sounding by mixer sliding rather than shouts. - A proper way [matter of opinion] of working around fixed Velocity would be using Breath Control (the MIDI implementation used in wind controllers. The global guru of those may be Matt from Patchman.)

2) Note (to OP) that this kit seems to build on hardware already present (judging from that website) or to be added (as Ventura states), so I can merely hope that this approach would simplify the task at hand enough to be done. - And yes, this forum does feature members from Australia. You can almost watch the Earth rotate by noticing who's contributing.

 

[accordionmaniac]

Thanks for your input everyone, there is a lot of information you've provided which I think I need to read a few more times to properly digest.

Two interesting developments and one of them I need to thank @Ventura for.

1. I've come into contact with a midi vendor in Austria who says his product could be installed without experience, and he's asked for photos of my accordion's bass mechanism. Time will tell whether there was just an error in translation or whether perhaps there is something interesting going on with his product.
2. Thanks to Ventura I followed some leads and came into contact with Lino in Adelaide (about 850km from me) who is actively doing midi installations as well as conversions for old midi accordions, and is able to retrofit bass midi with no hassles, as long as I buy a kit, and make my way down to him. He is full of experience and knowledge in this domain. I cannot tell you, Ventura, how many accordion contacts around Australia I've talked to, who did not know of Lino whatsoever. So thank you.

If anything emerges from point 1 above I will provide an update.

As a short generalised response to everyone, I have some experience with midi just at a software level but no knowledge at the hardware level, and no nuance whatsoever in what I do know about midi. I was always of the understanding that fitting midi into an accordion does require an electrical and an accordion repair background, but reading about Midirig from Scotland (who haven't responded to my query) made me wonder and chase down a rabbit hole that lead me to an Austrian product which could be interesting. (I'm not doubting what anyone here has said about it not being possible, but if somehow the Austrian lead turns into something, I will be sure to let you know.)

 

[Ventura]

glad to hear Lino is still alive and kicking

i have one of his Cordovox adapters, which works quite nicely,
and one of his basic kits, which is still on my project pile

the kit is simplicity itself, as he builds it out on a board with
solder holes/points all along the edge which you simply wire the contacts to

no need to build/use/wire up a switching matrix interface as with many kits

 

[accordionmaniac]

He's suggested a budget friendly alternative to sourcing my own kit, which is, for him to send a used kit which uses spring contacts. Thoughts on here about old spring ones? Any added risk of issues like catching onto rods?

 

[boxplayer4000]

accordionmania: I've had no difficulties with simple spring contacts (gold plated spring wire/gold plated coil spring). Depending on use and environment etc. they do require maintenance from time to time but this entails only simple cleaning and adjustment.
This person sells midi kits. The key contacts are the responsibility of the buyer. The last time I looked the kits only supply basic midi information and don't cater for bellows pressure/expression etc. Also you need to check if the midi boards can be accommodated in the bass end otherwise fitting them in the bellows space can require extra wiring. The job is certainly more simple when you only require bass and chords.

About Us

 

[Alan Sharkis]

My acoustic accordion was stock at the factory. When it took over a month for the dealer to get it I was a little puzzled, but he explained it to me:

The factory is in Vercelli. The MIDI and microphone company uis in Castelfidardo. After the MIDI and mikes were installed, the accordion was shipped back to the factory to be checked. Then it was shipped to the dealer who, at that time, was in Connecticut.

So, assuming you already have the accordion and want MIDI installed from a kit on the bass side only, it makes a whole lot of sense for an experienced accordion repairman to do it. My accordion’s MIDI has Hall sensors.. They are fine, IF the accordion never gets banged around, so a fully-padded case or bag is essential. If a Hall sensor does go out of adjustment, it typically happens on the treble side and affects only one or two keys. If that happens, either no sound will result from pressing the affected key or the sound from that key will be continuous. On the treble side, the sensors are mounted on a printed-circuit board and the magnets are mounted on the key rods. Adjusting the sensors is done by removing the grille, and bending the affected sensor, a millimeter at a time, toward the magnet if the key doesn’t play, or away from the magnet if the key plays continuously. Aside from that, no maintenance is required.

But I repeat; whatever the technology is regarding detecting a key-press, installation is best left to an experienced accordion repairer even if that means a long trip.

 

[Valski]

Dear Maniac,

I'm going to throw out something to be considered before purchasing an add on midi for your accordion.

How much did you pay for your existing accordion.?
How much will you have to pay for the add-ons?
Are you sure that you will achieve your goal without more technology?
Will you be satisfied with just the midi bass or will you want to potentially go further by adding this to the treble later on?
Have you checked the prices on ready built midi accordions?
Are you technical enough to troubleshoot simple issues?

The reason that I mention this is that I have been along the same path and in the end realized that there wasn't enough incentive to take half measures so then purchased my Roland Fr8x and haven’t regretted my decision for one moment. My acoustic Excelsior cost me somewhere north of $5,000 CAD plus by adding the Midi components for another $2-3,000, the end price was very much like a Roland. Therefore it was easy to make the decision to go all in on the fully Midi instrument.

I was lucky to sell my Excelsior for a very good price so this helped me to reach a decision but ended up wasting a fair sum before coming to what now feels like the best path. In life we tend to regret that we didn't commit fully soon enough and you won't regret fully embracing Midi.

 

[Ventura]

well, if we think back to the era of organ Accordions, and
how it was an amazingly enabling side effect to suddenly
have electronic Bass and Chords, freeing up the bellows to
allow concentration on the squeeze expression for just the treble

for many jazz players, MIDI offered this basic freedom again just
by adding MIDI Bass alone

so there is a tremendous amount of freedom just from this one thing..
literally every melody you have ever loved can now be played in a
fresh new way when you can focus on your squeeze and right hand attack

just because of MIDI bass

so it depends what a person wants from their music too.. i know i
personally can be very happy in my Studio just with a basic MIDI
accordion, an old Sound Canvas tweaked for bass and Chords,
and a set of Drawbars for my right hand to alternate with my reeds
(the VK8m is the newest, but i still have my older ORLA and Korg drawbar modules)

but it is fun, too, having velocity on the Rolands and playing a more
realistic Piano riff or going off on a great Rhodes sound patch
for a 10 minute Riders on the Storm jam

then there are those really good near reed sort of tones like a big fat Sax
that can be controlled with a Squeeze and will put shivers down the
spine of anyone who hears you play something like "Stormy Weather"

can spend years exploring any of these musical areas that
technology, both old and new, can offer us

whatever your budget allows, you can find something that will
expand your accordion horizons

 

[accordionmaniac]

Hi Valski, I appreciate your input. It's something I've considered, but I'm just too obsessed with the acoustic accordion's sound to go to a reedless midi accordion, or even treble midi on an acoustic accordion. A lot of people within the alpine style are just after midi bass, similar to Ventura's example of jazz players. But may consider it in the future since the reedless has a nice benefit - the low weight.

 

[Dingo40]

Here's a Steirische harmonica with a LIMEX MIDI installed on the bass side.
Quite good, really!
If nothing else, he gives some suggestions for varying your left hand runs !

 

[dak]

I have one detail to add for adding standard bass MIDI to an acoustic accordion: there are usually 24 sensors, associated with 12 bass notes and 12 chord notes. Mechanically, the bass notes customary couple into chord notes to make for stronger bass notes. MIDI-wise, you absolutely don't want this: more often than not bass and chord are different instruments or even different controls for an arranger.

Now in the hybrid accordion I have, there is one additional spring holding back all sensor levers associated with chord notes so that they don't follow what the chord pallets do when bass buttons are pressed. Pressing any chord button will engage the spring, stopping it from holding back the sensor levers which then are following gravity or vibrations as they want.

That means that if you frequently play chords like C in the bass and em in the chords (amounting to cmaj7), the MIDI receives C in the bass and E, G, and B in the chords, and at some random point of time C may or may not appear in the chord notes.

For Oom-Pah accompaniment, this is a non-issue. For Jazz and/or creative use of long bass notes with chord-note overlays this can be a serious distraction. This can actually be more problematic for basses in 3+3 layout since there the seventh chords tend to be root-less rather than without the fifth, and then even using a bass note and the corresponding seventh chord together triggers this problem.

The obvious solution, one spring for every sensor rod instead of one for all, does not seem to be used, possibly because it would triple the impact on chord button resistance. Another solution would be to modify the bass mechanism to stop it from coupling into the chord octaves at all.