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book for reversed c-griff freebass

bandoneon.hk

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I am new to accordion and I got a c griff accordion with converter bass, but with lowest at bottom and highest note on top of accordion.

I wonder if there is any book from Germany, Italy, USA/UK... etc which provide a guideline of the fingering of scale, appegios, broken chord or czerny-like exercise for this system?

Of course I can find my own fingering but just wonder if there is such a book in the world.

Thanks in advance for any feedback.
 
D

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Hello,

Welcome to this accordion forum !

I'm afraid I don't know any C-system free bass accordion tutorials or methods for reversed free bass layout.

I only know B-system free bass accordions with reversed free basses, usually in Russia.

What type or brand is your C-Griff or C-system accordion with reversed free bass layout?
Is it a series made instrument? Or was it a special order with reversed free basses?

This C-system free bass tutor (the comprehensive method for free bass by Mogens Ellegaard) is for the usual free bass layout on C-system or C-Griff.
https://www.scribd.com/doc/73015963/Ellegaard-Comprehensive-Method-for-Free-Bass  

I wonder how many C-Griff accordion players in the past or present use a reversed free bass layout.
 

debra

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In all my life I have seen a reversed C-system free bass accordion once, and that was a piano accordion.
C-griff melody bass is almost always mirrored from a C-griff treble side. B-griff is mostly mirrored in Europe and reversed in Russia and countries under Russian influence.
Personally I prefer the mirrored setup because you use low notes more on the bass side and you have better bellows control when your hand is in the upper half of the bass keyboard.
Why did you get a C-griff with reversed melody bass? Was it just a mistake, not considering that these might actually exist?
 

bandoneon.hk

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debra said:
In all my life I have seen a reversed C-system free bass accordion once, and that was a piano accordion.
C-griff melody bass is almost always mirrored from a C-griff treble side. B-griff is mostly mirrored in Europe and reversed in Russia and countries under Russian influence.
Personally I prefer the mirrored setup because you use low notes more on the bass side and you have better bellows control when your hand is in the upper half of the bass keyboard.
Why did you get a C-griff with reversed melody bass? Was it just a mistake, not considering that these might actually exist?

Paul, I am Kit you met in Facebook. I thought all c griff melody bass are the same so I made the mistake to buy this instrument from a seller who doesn't know accordion.


Stephen said:
Hello,

Welcome to this accordion forum !

I'm afraid I don't know any C-system free bass accordion tutorials or methods for reversed free bass layout.

I only know B-system free bass accordions with reversed free basses, usually in Russia.

What type or brand is your C-Griff or C-system accordion with reversed free bass layout?
Is it a series made instrument? Or was it a special order with reversed free basses?

This C-system free bass tutor (the comprehensive method for free bass by Mogens Ellegaard) is for the usual free bass layout on C-system or C-Griff.
https://www.scribd.com/doc/73015963/Ellegaard-Comprehensive-Method-for-Free-Bass  

I wonder how many C-Griff accordion players in the past or present use a reversed free bass layout.

Stephen, thanks for your sharing. 

Mine is a Bugari, it seems to be bugari 580/ars/c old model with 5 chin registers and one tone chamber. I guess the former owner request special order from Bugari. But the former owner passed away and the seller doesn't know accordion at all, so I made mistake to assume this is normal c-griff melody bass.
 

debra

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bandoneon.hk said:
Mine is a Bugari, it seems to be bugari 580/ars/c old model with 5 chin registers and one tone chamber. I guess the former owner request special order from Bugari. But the former owner passed away and the seller doesn't know accordion at all, so I made mistake to assume this is normal c-griff melody bass.
Hmm... very strange that Bugari would have made one with reversed c griff. I assume you are sure, right, that C is on the outer row?
Also, I didn't know there was ever a 580/ars/c with single tone chamber. A friend of mine had an older 580/ars/c with 5 chin switches (and 58 notes) but it did have 2 reed blocks in the tone chamber (which is what is always called "double tone chamber" even though it's just one chamber).
Well... as an accordion repair person you can tackle the problem of changing the reversed c griff into the standard mirrored one... ;)  Sounds like an interesting challenge! But I think this is easier than the quest for a study method book for the reversed c griff.
 

bandoneon.hk

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debra pid='73280' dateline='1594105526' said:
bandoneon.hk said:
Mine is a Bugari, it seems to be bugari 580/ars/c old model with 5 chin registers and one tone chamber. I guess the former owner request special order from Bugari. But the former owner passed away and the seller doesn't know accordion at all, so I made mistake to assume this is normal c-griff melody bass.
Hmm... very strange that Bugari would have made one with reversed c griff. I assume you are sure, right, that C is on the outer row?
Also, I didn't know there was ever a 580/ars/c with single tone chamber. A friend of mine had an older 580/ars/c with 5 chin switches (and 58 notes) but it did have 2 reed blocks in the tone chamber (which is what is always called "double tone chamber" even though it's just one chamber).
Well... as an accordion repair person you can tackle the problem of changing the reversed c griff into the standard mirrored one... ;) Sounds like an interesting challenge! But I think this is easier than the quest for a study method book for the reversed c griff.

Attached some photos to clarify the model. I asked Bugari how much it cost to change the reversed c griff to mirrored one. they said it cost too high that I'd better purchase a new one.
 

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D

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The inside photos are showing a Bugari in what looks to be an accordion in fine condition.

Perhaps Paul or another accordion repairer can give you a few ideas.

It would be terrible if you had to sell this instrument, and look for another (expensive) accordion with the right free bass layout for you.

I'm not an accordion repairer, but what if your problem could be solved by replacing the free bass reedplates in the bass side? 
And reorder these reedplates on the reedblocks in the "standard" position for free bass c-system?

Or if some mechanics can be rearranged?

Wouldn't that be cheaper than selling your beautiful Bugari?

I don't know if this is technically possible, but if it is, the problem could be solved in a short period and at relatively low cost. 

(You can also learn to play it in the actual state with reversed free basses. But if I were you I'd contact a professional accordion repairer and see what's possible. Take your accordion to an accordion repairer to know your options)
 

debra

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OK, that is definitely a 580 of the older series, but that is an accordion with 58 notes, 4 voice, 3 reed blocks in cassotto and 3 reed blocks outside, and that is what people call "double cassotto". L and M reeds are in cassotto.
This is a very nice instrument and being older it still has the proper leather valves with metal booster springs. (Bugari later switched to the faux leather with plastic boosters that require the accordion to be stored in the playing orientation in order for the valves not to start sagging over time.
Just stick with the reversed C griff if this is your first experience with melody bass. The Russians all use a reversed bass (albeit B-griff). This accordion will last a lifetime, so you will never need another.
 
D

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Could you send us some more inside photos of the bass side converter mechanism or photos of the bass side reedblocks responsible for the "free basses"? (But don't do any harm to your very beautiful Bugari !)

Sorry to hear the Bugari company says there is nothing you can do about it. I'd go for a second opinion by other repairers.

There are a lot of different converter mechanisms and reedblocks arrangements. Some firms have patented and produced removable bass mechanisms (Scandalli and others).

In some cases entire reedblocks can be reversed inside the instrument (without having to unwax and rearrange + rewax the reedplates), if there is enough space inside the accordion.

In other cases reedplates can be unwaxed, rearranged and rewaxed.

Without detailed photos of the inside of this convertor mechanism and the bass reedblocks, it's very difficult to guess what's possible and what's not.

Did you ask other opinions from professional accordion repairers ? Or only the Bugari company?
 

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I'm guessing it's above all the convertor mechanism that's an issue - moving the reeds around would mean all the wrong 'slots' would be opened.
I second Paul's suggestion - I'm not sure the mirror setup is ideal anyway and if you're starting from scratch...
I thought the Harmonéon was set up like a Bayan.
Alain Abbott (a French composer) has written some 800 works - many for the Accordéon de Concert. This includes study books.
Look here:
https://www.stretta-music.com/en/ab...s-vol-2-accordeon-enseignement-nr-218306.html
 

debra

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Stephen said:
...
I'm not an accordion repairer, but what if your problem could be solved by replacing the free bass reedplates in the bass side? 
And reorder these reedplates on the reedblocks in the "standard" position for free bass c-system?

Or if some mechanics can be rearranged?
...

There is no such thing as "the free bass reedplates". The reeds (and plates) are all shared between the standard (Stradella) bass and the melody bass. If the reed plates are moved the Stradella base nodes and all the chords would be wrong.

Changing the mechanics is also problematic because the free bass is 4 rows. It's a similar problem to changing a button accordion from C-griff to B-griff or vice versa: the 4rd (and there also the 5th) are offset in the wrong direction...

So best is to just accept that the accordion is what it is, and enjoy playing it!
 
D

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Yes, in most cases the same bass reeds are shared for use for the "free bass" and the "stradella bass chords", but not all setups are identical. 
Sometimes it is possible to rearrange things, and low octave bass notes/reeds can be fixed on different reedblocks than upper octave bass notes/reeds.

If I understand it correctly, the Bugari people don't say it is impossible. They say it would be at a high cost.

I agree, if it is too complicated and at a high cost, best is not to touch the inside of his high end convertor accordion. And learn the reversed free bass system, even without an existing method book for this system.
 

debra

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Stephen said:
Yes, in most cases the same bass reeds are shared for use for the "free bass" and the "stradella bass chords", but not all setups are identical. 
Sometimes it is possible to rearrange things, and low octave bass notes/reeds can be fixed on different reedblocks than upper octave bass notes/reeds.

If I understand it correctly, the Bugari people don't say it is impossible. They say it would be at a high cost.

I agree, if it is too complicated and at a high cost, best is not to touch the inside of his high end convertor accordion. And learn the reversed free bass system, even without an existing method book for this system.

The change would not be that difficult or high cost if it could be done by just replacing the entire bass mechanism (minus the pallets). The reed blocks and pallets can be made identical, whether the accordion is C-griff, B-griff, mirrored or reversed. Only the levers, catorcetti... need to be swapped out. But... this is only an easy fix (requiring a lot of material though) when the same type of bass (and convertor) mechanism is still being produced. And that's where the problem lies: Bugari does not design its own bass and convertor mechanism. There are "standard" mechanisms used by many accordion manufacturers, and these change every few years (I have seen several different mechanisms in Bugari accordions from recent to about 20 years old.) So a mechanism that can be simply put in place of the existing one can no longer be obtained (except salvaged from a scrap accordion). As the existing mechanism must be "changed" it's more expensive an operation than if it could simply be replaced completely.
 

dunlustin

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Just another small 'push' trying to find the OP find an answer.
Learning fingering should be no big deal.
I don't think MIII music is usually written with a particular fingering in mind.
So: another small 'plug' for the Abbott teaching material.
It's possible Abbott's books could have been written with the reversed layout in mind??
I reckon a man with 27 Concertos (i?) for accordion behind him has to be worth a try.
By the way:
It's arguable that a layout putting the higher notes under the more agile fingers is a bonus.
You could see your mistake as a huge piece of luck!
 
D

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And If this Bugari 580 converter accordion is a unique special order, it's worth more and could be a collector's item. 


Anyhow a curious case this instrument. 
Was the deceased original owner a famous or known accordionist? 
Perhaps this person left a handwritten tutorial on how to play C-Grip free basses in reversed order? 

I would be interested to see a YT video with a demonstration of this instrument by some professional repairer or expert. 

Maybe it has some kind of innovating converter or bass mechanism?
 

bandoneon.hk

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Stephen said:
Could you send us some more inside photos of the bass side converter mechanism or photos of the bass side reedblocks responsible for the "free basses"? (But don't do any harm to your very beautiful Bugari !)

Sorry to hear the Bugari company says there is nothing you can do about it. I'd go for a second opinion by other repairers.

There are a lot of different converter mechanisms and reedblocks arrangements. Some firms have patented and produced removable bass mechanisms (Scandalli and others).

In some cases entire reedblocks can be reversed inside the instrument (without having to unwax and rearrange + rewax the reedplates), if there is enough space inside the accordion.

In other cases reedplates can be unwaxed, rearranged and rewaxed.

Without detailed photos of the inside of this convertor mechanism and the bass reedblocks, it's very difficult to guess what's possible and what's not.

Did you ask other opinions from professional accordion repairers ? Or only the Bugari company?

Attached some photos of the bass side. I shown this accordion to a guy who got trained in Italy but he said it is not possible to change the freebass back to mirror c-griff. Sadly we don't have very professional accordion repairer in my place.
 

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debra

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bandoneon.hk said:
Attached some photos of the bass side. I shown this accordion to a guy who got trained in Italy but he said it is not possible to change the freebass back to mirror c-griff. Sadly we don't have very professional accordion repairer in my place.

Looks like your friend is right. The reed blocks are installed so that the reeds go from high to low from left to right. On a mirrored bass they are the other way. So I guess that in your case you cannot reverse the direction because the buttons for the high notes are on the opposite side from where the reeds are on the reed blocks (and vice versa). Here is a picture from the reed blocks on a mirrored C griff: Pigini Sirius, AKKO bayan, Victoria, Hohner Gola (picture taken from the other side), and Bugari... and invariably ALL of them have the low reeds near where the buttons for the low notes are and the high reeds near the buttons for the high notes. The only exception is the lowest octave which appears to be the same independent of whether the convertor is reversed or mirrored, and this is because these reeds are used for the Stradella base notes and are always spread over the entire length of the accordion while all the buttons for these reeds are on one side.

P7251616.jpg
PA059586.jpg
P6041871.jpg
Image186.jpg
P7312048.jpg


bandoneon.hk said:
Attached some photos of the bass side. I shown this accordion to a guy who got trained in Italy but he said it is not possible to change the freebass back to mirror c-griff. Sadly we don't have very professional accordion repairer in my place.

Let me add another piece of knowledge about your accordion for you, that you may like.
You may have noticed in your rightmost picture that besides the large reed block for the lowest notes you have another reed block. I believe this reed block contains higher reeds for the lowest octave base notes, that get turned on or off with the round register switches. This is the way it's done on a bayan. The pictures I showed earlier of the Pigini Sirius and the AKKO have these reeds mounted as piggyback on the large reed block. Both your construction and that of these others define how a bayan bass works, and the old 580 was also called a bayan by Bugari (whereas the new 580 is not). These extra reeds do not play on any note in the melody bass, which makes tuning them a bit more challenging but which makes the convertor mechanism simpler and therefore lighter to play. So you *really* have a good one here! Cherish it!
The same mechanism with extra reed block on the side is also used in the Bugari Bayan Prime!
 

bandoneon.hk

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Looks like your friend is right. The reed blocks are installed so that the reeds go from high to low from left to right. On a mirrored bass they are the other way. So I guess that in your case you cannot reverse the direction because the buttons for the high notes are on the opposite side from where the reeds are on the reed blocks (and vice versa). Here is a picture from the reed blocks on a mirrored C griff: Pigini Sirius, AKKO bayan, Victoria, Hohner Gola (picture taken from the other side), and Bugari... and invariably ALL of them have the low reeds near where the buttons for the low notes are and the high reeds near the buttons for the high notes. The only exception is the lowest octave which appears to be the same independent of whether the convertor is reversed or mirrored, and this is because these reeds are used for the Stradella base notes and are always spread over the entire length of the accordion while all the buttons for these reeds are on one side.

P7251616.jpg
PA059586.jpg
P6041871.jpg
Image186.jpg
P7312048.jpg




Let me add another piece of knowledge about your accordion for you, that you may like.
You may have noticed in your rightmost picture that besides the large reed block for the lowest notes you have another reed block. I believe this reed block contains higher reeds for the lowest octave base notes, that get turned on or off with the round register switches. This is the way it's done on a bayan. The pictures I showed earlier of the Pigini Sirius and the AKKO have these reeds mounted as piggyback on the large reed block. Both your construction and that of these others define how a bayan bass works, and the old 580 was also called a bayan by Bugari (whereas the new 580 is not). These extra reeds do not play on any note in the melody bass, which makes tuning them a bit more challenging but which makes the convertor mechanism simpler and therefore lighter to play. So you *really* have a good one here! Cherish it!
The same mechanism with extra reed block on the side is also used in the Bugari Bayan Prime!


Thank you Paul for these explanations. I still don't know it's a luck or what to me. I bought this accordion for around GBP 4500 and thought this price is low side in the market for 2 cassotto and convertor. Anyway, I will play it like piano because I don't think I can afford to buy another bayan accordion with the same specification but mirror c-griff.
 

bandoneon.hk

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And If this Bugari 580 converter accordion is a unique special order, it's worth more and could be a collector's item.


Anyhow a curious case this instrument.
Was the deceased original owner a famous or known accordionist?
Perhaps this person left a handwritten tutorial on how to play C-Grip free basses in reversed order?

I would be interested to see a YT video with a demonstration of this instrument by some professional repairer or expert.

Maybe it has some kind of innovating converter or bass mechanism?
I asked the seller for the owner detail. The previous owner was Leslie, neighbor of my seller. Leslie bought this accordion from an accordion shop in Edgware Road Twickenham London UK. that's all detail the seller could provide. We don't know if Leslie was the first owner.
 

debra

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Thank you Paul for these explanations. I still don't know it's a luck or what to me. I bought this accordion for around GBP 4500 and thought this price is low side in the market for 2 cassotto and convertor. Anyway, I will play it like piano because I don't think I can afford to buy another bayan accordion with the same specification but mirror c-griff.
GBP 4500 sounds about right for this instrument. It is low for a cassotto and convertor, but depends a lot on the age of the instrument. For an instrument of the older 580 series the price is right. You did not pay too much, but it also isn't the bargain of the century.
An older 580 for GBP 4500 is certainly the very best instrument you can get for that price. So consider yourself lucky!
 

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