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Bellows Protector / Back Pad Purchase ?

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smdc66

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I am thinking of investing in one of these for my concerto 111s as believe it is a way to improve the comfort of playing to some degree

it appears to be a low cost way to do this if so too (seen on charlie marshall site for £15)

and think you can install it easily with basic diy skills

i may be a bit naive but can the back pad sometimes get caught in the bellows :?:

just considering any fors and againsts

feedback welcome .... :geek:
 

Soulsaver

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smdc66 said:
i may be a bit naive but can the back pad sometimes get caught in the bellows :?:

just considering any fors and againsts

feedback welcome .... :geek:

In a word.. no. And in more words.. it doesnt, its flat, nothing protrudes to get caught. Just make sure you get the right size.
 

JIM D.

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The purpose of a back pad is for bellows protection 1st, and comfort 2nd. A back pad of the wrong size and inferior quality will provide no benefit whatsoever.
 

Soulsaver

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Just predicting your next question after Jim has (correctly) sowed the seed: I've had one of CGMs on my Guerrini for a couple of years of daily use with no problems.
 
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smdc66

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if i go ahead

i'll measure accurately to ensure it covers the back from treble side to bass side and from top to bottom

maybe allowing half inch / inch round on edges that need not be covered.......?

i was just thinking of a couple of possible againsts:

could you then play with or without it once fitted?

would it create warmth and hence added discomfort say in summer months?

thanks s/saver - just edited my post :)

regards

:geek:
 

Soulsaver

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You could (press studs) but you won't take it off unless you're working on the accordion. It doesn't create warmth.. and they're not tailor made: measure the width of your keyboard back (chin to knee wise) and buy CGMs biggest size inside that measure; the length in the other direction is 'as made' for the width, it doesn't have to reach the bass board, it doesn't even have to cover the bellows actually - it's YOUR belt buckle and shirt/jacket buttons it has to cover.. Chat to Charlie if you're unsure.
 
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smdc66

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purchase made / arrived quickly / assembled

looks good.......

:ch
 
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Geronimo

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Soulsaver post_id=30305 time=1446932746 user_id=65 said:
smdc66 said:
i may be a bit naive but can the back pad sometimes get caught in the bellows :?:

just considering any fors and againsts

feedback welcome .... :geek:

In a word.. no. And in more words.. it doesnt, its flat, nothing protrudes to get caught. Just make sure you get the right size.
I finally analyzed my stiff bellows problem on the Excelsior where at larger extensions the bellows tends to extend in jerks (particularly noticeable with the bellows internal microphone). Its actually the bellows protector (smooth leathery surface) pressing against the bellows folds that appears to cling until the folds then move with a jump.

Nothing protrudes or gets caught, for sure, but the protector still makes for jerky movements. Not sure yet how I am going to deal with it. Obvious first solution is to remove it: at least wearing typical clothing (without exposed buttons), the fabric seems like a better choice.

PostScriptum: the Morino Artiste models I have have a built-in bellows protector of hard somewhat curved hard plastic. It only protects a smaller part of the bellows but never caused similar problems, likely because of being completely rigid.
 

debra

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Geronimo post_id=59552 time=1527588702 user_id=2623 said:
...
I finally analyzed my stiff bellows problem on the Excelsior where at larger extensions the bellows tends to extend in jerks (particularly noticeable with the bellows internal microphone). Its actually the bellows protector (smooth leathery surface) pressing against the bellows folds that appears to cling until the folds then move with a jump.
...

Adding a layer of a smoother fabric (nylon or cotton) on the side of the bellows should solve this. Modern bellows protectors do not have a leathery surface but some type of fabric.
Note that when the bellows protector clings as you describe it will more likely harm the bellows than protect it!
 
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Geronimo

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debra post_id=59568 time=1527610185 user_id=605 said:
Geronimo post_id=59552 time=1527588702 user_id=2623 said:
...
I finally analyzed my stiff bellows problem on the Excelsior where at larger extensions the bellows tends to extend in jerks (particularly noticeable with the bellows internal microphone). Its actually the bellows protector (smooth leathery surface) pressing against the bellows folds that appears to cling until the folds then move with a jump.
...

Adding a layer of a smoother fabric (nylon or cotton) on the side of the bellows should solve this. Modern bellows protectors do not have a leathery surface but some type of fabric.
Note that when the bellows protector clings as you describe it will more likely harm the bellows than protect it!
Its not really sticky, just friction. I am not extraordinarily fat and this happens even without backstrap. Ill probably remove the protector for playing. I vaguely remember that I might have done so previously but forgotten about it when storing it.
 

Sebastian Bravo

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I've worked recently on a Hohner Morino V BS, and it had a stock backpad made of leather.

It was not straight flat... and it got caught in the bellows many times.

I think a perfectly flat and new bellows back pad would never get caught in the bellows. Just try to get a comfy one.
 
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Geronimo

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Sebastian Bravo post_id=59574 time=1527621896 user_id=2512 said:
Ive worked recently on a Hohner Morino V BS, and it had a stock backpad made of leather.

It was not straight flat... and it got caught in the bellows many times.

I think a perfectly flat and new bellows back pad would never get caught in the bellows. Just try to get a comfy one.

It doesnt get caught in the bellows at all. Its just that the bellows opens jerkily. The pad definitely is perfectly flat for all purposes. Ill probably have to make a demo video using just the air button but Ill wait for better light.
 

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My Beltuna came with a pad made from a stiff carpet like material, with a Velour face contacting my chest. It's comfortable and cool, however, it sometimes catches the bellows when closing, creating a jerky motion.
I recently built a protector for my Artista. I used a thick felt cloth (Walmart), that sandwiched a 1/4" (8mm) thick foam [fairly dense]. I sewed a diamond pleat pattern across the pad to maintain it's shape, and secured with barrel snaps (as found on a windbreaker) to the treble body. So far there are no interference issues.
While I used an industrial sewing machine for my project, I don't see any problem using a home style machine if nylon thread is used.
I won't be able to report on the durability for a while, but we'll see...
The box, minus pad, was uncomfortable because of the bellows/body pins rubbing on my chest. I haven't played the Artista much with the new pad in place, but, so far the more flexable pad is better.
All's well, for now.

Press on....
Waldo
 
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Geronimo

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Geronimo post_id=59575 time=1527622259 user_id=2623 said:
It doesnt get caught in the bellows at all. Its just that the bellows opens jerkily. The pad definitely is perfectly flat for all purposes. Ill probably have to make a demo video using just the air button but Ill wait for better light.

And here it is. Not the air button after all. But I think one can both hear and see the problem.
 

Waldo

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Geronimo
Place a sheet of cardboard between the bellows and backpad and play. If problem gone, the pad material is gripping the bellows edges (it appears that way).
Replace backpad with cloth version. (More comfortable, too.)
 

debra

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WaldoW post_id=59613 time=1527738461 user_id=1663 said:
Geronimo
Place a sheet of cardboard between the bellows and backpad and play. If problem gone, the pad material is gripping the bellows edges (it appears that way).
Replace backpad with cloth version. (More comfortable, too.)

Actually, it is more likely that when the bellows protector grips the bellows edges it means that when closing the bellows you are pulling the bass side a bit towards your body. Changing this habit (to avoid the problem) is a lot harder than changing the back pad for a softer fabric one...
 
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Geronimo

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debra post_id=59619 time=1527750119 user_id=605 said:
WaldoW post_id=59613 time=1527738461 user_id=1663 said:
Geronimo
Place a sheet of cardboard between the bellows and backpad and play. If problem gone, the pad material is gripping the bellows edges (it appears that way).
Replace backpad with cloth version. (More comfortable, too.)

Actually, it is more likely that when the bellows protector grips the bellows edges it means that when closing the bellows you are pulling the bass side a bit towards your body. Changing this habit (to avoid the problem) is a lot harder than changing the back pad for a softer fabric one...
I put up a video. Effect is most visible on opening the bellows, I am not even using a backstrap here (which would bring the instrument in even closer) and I am playing while sitting where its not the full weight of the instrument pulling on the straps. The backpad is already cloth on the players side. At any rate, this is not an instrument I actually play and its for sale (I just dragged it out for some demos since it has Midi and a larger range than my Roland FR-1xb), so this is not really a concern of mine and Id be fine playing without bellows protector anyway (dont have them on other instruments).

Where a bellows protector has a non-trivial point for me is when playing standing up and particularly so with edged buttons on the clothing.
 

debra

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Geronimo post_id=59620 time=1527753187 user_id=2623 said:
I put up a video. Effect is most visible on opening the bellows, I am not even using a backstrap here (which would bring the instrument in even closer) and I am playing while sitting where its not the full weight of the instrument pulling on the straps. ...

The video shows a clear case of a back pad that is certainly too close to the bellows when not being pushed there by the players body. It may be at least partly caused by the shape of the (back of the) instrument.
The back pad is certainly hurting the bellows more than it is protecting them. Thats bad. Considering how much work it is to replace the bellows tape when it gets damaged it is certainly worth looking for a better back pad.
 
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Geronimo

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debra post_id=59624 time=1527762874 user_id=605 said:
Geronimo post_id=59620 time=1527753187 user_id=2623 said:
I put up a video. Effect is most visible on opening the bellows, I am not even using a backstrap here (which would bring the instrument in even closer) and I am playing while sitting where its not the full weight of the instrument pulling on the straps. ...

The video shows a clear case of a back pad that is certainly too close to the bellows when not being pushed there by the players body. It may be at least partly caused by the shape of the (back of the) instrument.
I think its also to a good degree the surface quality of pad and/or bellows itself: I actually had several goes, trying to push out what belly I can muster in order to bring more pressure to the pad/bellows contact area. This made surprisingly little difference: the basic sticking problem appears to come in the moment there is contact at all. I actually think that the incurred abrasion will be minimal since there is no cross-movement during the sticky phase and when it jumps other bellows folds have already taken over most of the pressure. But it still ruins the play, so thats sort of besides the point.

Youll find that the last few arranger videos I put in suffer from the same sort of jumpiness. I attributed it to a stiff bellows and then perhaps to the Midi flat cable connecting bass and treble side. I am almost sure that I had this figured out once before already before stowing away the instrument. Maybe I should store the pad separately or add a note into the case right now.
 
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