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Anyone who played anything like this?

henrikhank

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In Sweden we call this Engelska (English).
It is said to have come from England and then from there to France, USA and Sweden.
Do you have you any example of this?
 

Tom

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Hi Henri,

I'm from the USA, and here we call this type of music "fiddle tunes" or "jigs and reels," or simply "Irish." I've played plenty of music of this type on my fiddle, but I do not play it on accordion. I do not recognize this tune specifically, but the ending is very common and occurs in tunes that I know such as St. Anne's Reel.
 

henrikhank

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Tom post_id=59722 time=1528039638 user_id=69 said:
Hi Henri,

Im from the USA, and here we call this type of music fiddle tunes or jigs and reels, or simply Irish. Ive played plenty of music of this type on my fiddle, but I do not play it on accordion. I do not recognize this tune specifically, but the ending is very common and occurs in tunes that I know such as St. Annes Reel.
You play reels at an American barn dance? I mean, isnt that more of an Irish kinda thing?
Do you play them differntly then the Irish? The scotts irish people changed the music a bit I have heard.
 
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Geronimo

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henrikhank post_id=59729 time=1528049393 user_id=2321 said:
Tom post_id=59722 time=1528039638 user_id=69 said:
Hi Henri,

Im from the USA, and here we call this type of music fiddle tunes or jigs and reels, or simply Irish. Ive played plenty of music of this type on my fiddle, but I do not play it on accordion. I do not recognize this tune specifically, but the ending is very common and occurs in tunes that I know such as St. Annes Reel.
You play reels at an American barn dance? I mean, isnt that more of an Irish kinda thing?
Seriously? Do you think square and line dances are a Native American thing too? American traditions and music and even language particularly of New England are mostly ritualized and ossified variants of things they hold up in reverence to their respective European origins. Thats not really untypical of former exclaves.
 

henrikhank

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Geronimo post_id=59731 time=1528050614 user_id=2623 said:
henrikhank post_id=59729 time=1528049393 user_id=2321 said:
Tom post_id=59722 time=1528039638 user_id=69 said:
Hi Henri,

Im from the USA, and here we call this type of music fiddle tunes or jigs and reels, or simply Irish. Ive played plenty of music of this type on my fiddle, but I do not play it on accordion. I do not recognize this tune specifically, but the ending is very common and occurs in tunes that I know such as St. Annes Reel.
You play reels at an American barn dance? I mean, isnt that more of an Irish kinda thing?
Seriously? Do you think square and line dances are a Native American thing too? American traditions and music and even language particularly of New England are mostly ritualized and ossified variants of things they hold up in reverence to their respective European origins. Thats not really untypical of former exclaves.
I was just asking if there is difference between reels in USA and Ireland?
When music travels to another country it sometimes changes a bit.
Also I was asking if reels are played at a southern barn dance since I have never heard about it.
 

henrikhank

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Reels are really interesting.
I found this video: The guy in the video said that in reels you only play the bass note when playing a new chord. Thus there is no 1-5 (or somethibg simmilar) in the bass.
I found his way of playing intetesting but when going through reels on spotify I hear bass on beat 1 and 3. What is going on here?
You obviously dont want a polka bass for a reel but his idea of bass note only for a new chord...I just dont get it.
Please explain.

The tune (Engelska) sound kind of soft but when i played it with some accordionists it had more of a polka feel to it than it shouöd I guess. We used the same left hand pattern as for a polka. It didnt exactöy sound like a polka but it did not really aouns soft like in the video.
 
M

maugein96

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henrikhank post_id=59729 time=1528049393 user_id=2321 said:
You play reels at an American barn dance? I mean, isnt that more of an Irish kinda thing?
Do you play them differntly then the Irish? The scotts irish people changed the music a bit I have heard.

Hej HH,

Im what the Americans call Scotch-Irish, but Ive never really been into the music, which would have been almost pure Scottish, as the Scottish people who settled in that part of Ireland known as Ulster between the 16th and 18th centuries tended not to intermarry with the native Irish people, due to religious differences, and lived in separate communities.

However, when immigrants from Ulster arrived in America it is probable that both the Scotch Irish and native Irish musical styles merged somewhat, as I have read that both peoples often ended up living very close to each other. At that point there would have probably been a mixture of Irish and Scottish music which would have had a strong influence on any developing musical styles. Appalachian type music is credited with both Irish and Scottish influences, but Ive never really been into folk music much so I dont really know what is involved. The fiddle seems to have been the principal instrument, as obviously accordions hadnt been invented at the time.

If my knowledge of folk music is almost zero my knowledge of folk dances is even worse, and I wouldnt have any sort of clue as to what constitutes an engelska, or where it originated.

What I can tell you is that the UK consists of four states which all claim to be separate countries, but we are still all governed from England, which is currently the only state which can claim to be a country in its own right. The fact that Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are recognised as countries in certain elements of the sporting world causes some confusion, and in my experience most non British people just refer to the whole of the UK as England. The whole of Ireland was also under British rule for a time, but in 1921 the country was partitioned and won independence from Britain, which retained 6 counties from the province of Ulster. A new UK state was created and named Northern Ireland, and it has remained part of the UK since that time. There is every likelihood that the whole of Ireland was also just referred to as England at the time when your engelska dance got its name.

Im 75% Irish 25% Scottish with dual British/Irish nationality entitlement, so I dont really care what nationality people think I am. However, next year Ill still be an EU citizen, as the Republic of Ireland will still be in the EU, and the UK wont. The fact that I dont live in the Republic of Ireland doesnt matter, as Im still an Irish citizen, as well as a British one.

Suffice to say that if the issues regarding perceived nationalities in the UK and Ireland are complicated, even for those of us who live there, then the history of the music might be more complicated still.

I would therefore be inclined to read Scottish and/or Irish for your engelska type dance, and sorry I cant confuse you any further with it!

adjö
 

AccordionUprising

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Im no expert, but Ive read some interesting stuff on the history of the Irish/British/Scottish dance music (and various diaspora from these countries.) I wrote up a bit about some of that here:

Dance Tunes in Britain and Ireland: Where Did “Traditional” Begin? (Celia Pendlebury Thesis Review)
https://accordionuprising.wordpress...itional-begin-celia-pendlebury-thesis-review/

Here, Celia Pendlebury argues that the many similarities and overlapping repertoire amongst the traditional music of the British Isles stem from their common origins in upper-class dances spread by professional dancing masters with many written texts. Thats not the story Ive heard in most folk dance histories, but she makes a compelling argument.

That such dances might spread across Europe would make sense since the court dances were easily shared wherever the upper-classes travelled. The central idea then is that the dances and music later trickled down, or that they were shared with other classes and simply lasted longest amongst the folk.

I would love to read smarter peoples responses to Pendleburys research.
 
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Geronimo

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AccordionUprising post_id=59747 time=1528071342 user_id=718 said:
Im no expert, but Ive read some interesting stuff on the history of the Irish/British/Scottish dance music (and various diaspora from these countries.) I wrote up a bit about some of that here:

Dance Tunes in Britain and Ireland: Where Did “Traditional” Begin? (Celia Pendlebury Thesis Review)
https://accordionuprising.wordpress...itional-begin-celia-pendlebury-thesis-review/

Here, Celia Pendlebury argues that the many similarities and overlapping repertoire amongst the traditional music of the British Isles stem from their common origins in upper-class dances spread by professional dancing masters with many written texts. Thats not the story Ive heard in most folk dance histories, but she makes a compelling argument.
Id expect this to be a two-way street, the court dances not appearing out of nowhere.
That such dances might spread across Europe would make sense since the court dances were easily shared wherever the upper-classes travelled. The central idea then is that the dances and music later trickled down, or that they were shared with other classes and simply lasted longest amongst the folk.

I would love to read smarter peoples responses to Pendleburys research.
I would imagine the country dances. Thats not as much upper class as reading class, basically land owners and their servantry or aldermen (and other administrative workers) from which such instructions would come into active usage.

But thats mere handwaving of mine without the underpinnings of any research.
 
M

maugein96

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AccordionUprising post_id=59747 time=1528071342 user_id=718 said:
Im no expert, but Ive read some interesting stuff on the history of the Irish/British/Scottish dance music (and various diaspora from these countries.) I wrote up a bit about some of that here:

I would love to read smarter peoples responses to Pendleburys research.

Hi Bruce,

Sorry I definitely dont fit into the smarter people category, as like most people where I was brought up, unless your folks were wealthy your school years ended when you were 15. That was in the 60s, and things have improved dramatically over the years here in Scotland. The kids are now not allowed to leave school until theyre 16!

Im led to believe that somebody from the US once said:- The problem with Europe is that its such a small country, and it only takes a few days to see it all.

The fact that Pendlebury makes reference to the various dance styles being the prerogative of the upper classes probably has some degree of truth, as the overwhelming majority of Europeans would have been illiterate until the early 20th century, when literacy became a desirable skill. As such, only the wealthy would have been able to read and write music, and afford to buy the musical instruments necessary to play it.

As to the origins of the tunes and dance styles of the British Isles, there was always a considerable movement of peoples between our beautiful rainswept shores and mainland Europe since the 15th century, and possibly before. The East of Scotland had a long established sea trade with The Netherands and Belgium, and several Scots words are derived from Dutch or Flemish as a result of that.

Scots people also tended to flit back and forth to Ireland looking to better their lot in times of famine, and Irish people often came to Scotland annually to work helping farmers with the harvest.

When Scotland had the privilege of being independent from England, their royal family was linked with France, so the Scottish French Connection existed long before Popeye Doyle landed in Marseille. The word privilege is so highlighted as the Scottish people were about 10 times poorer than their English neighbours during the period of home rule. It was all about upper classes, and unfortunately religion.

Ill not bore you with all the details, but my own Scottish family were obliged to flee to Ireland from south west Scotland in the late 17th century to avoid what was politely referred to as religious persecution. Then while they were there, they met up with German religious refugees in a similar plight from Mecklenburg, who had originally settled in Scotland, but then also fled to Ireland.

What has all that to do with music and dancing?

Well it should already be apparent that there would probably have been at least some influences from western mainland Europe in the folkloric styles of the British Isles. Unfortunately I know almost nothing about folk music, as I have indicated elsewhere, but I wouldnt even begin to try and research any localised folk music or dancing style in Europe, as the chances are there would probably be some sort of outside influence that had never been documented.

With regard to the critic who chastised Pendlebury for not playing a tune as it was written, then the first thing I would have done was challenge the literacy of the composer and/or any other person who assisted in the composition and subsequent compilation of the score.

In my very limited experience of European folk music, most players learn the tunes from others and then put their own little variations into them. In older times any bits of paper with illegible musical scrawls on them would probably have been used to light the fire, or may even have been used for another purpose which Ill leave to your imagination! Incidentally, I havent actually researched the likely use of such a piece of paper.

If I were to really stir things up, how do we know whether the works of the great classical composers have been faithfully reproduced note for note over the years? Are there any certificates of continuity that would guarantee that that they are indeed the genuine article, or have some of them possibly been subtly amended over the centuries for whatever reason?

From what Ive read, it would appear that nobody really knows the precise composure dates of any of Bachs Brandenburg concertos, so how can anybody claim to have played a piece correctly, or be criticised for playing it not as written ?

Im now going to play a concerto precisely in the manner that it was written by Bach, and I believe he wrote it about 1713.

Anybody fancy lighting a fire?

Most people call me sceptical, but theyre only half right!
 

Tom

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henrikhank post_id=59729 time=1528049393 user_id=2321 said:
Tom post_id=59722 time=1528039638 user_id=69 said:
Hi Henri,

Im from the USA, and here we call this type of music fiddle tunes or jigs and reels, or simply Irish. Ive played plenty of music of this type on my fiddle, but I do not play it on accordion. I do not recognize this tune specifically, but the ending is very common and occurs in tunes that I know such as St. Annes Reel.
You play reels at an American barn dance? I mean, isnt that more of an Irish kinda thing?
Do you play them differntly then the Irish? The scotts irish people changed the music a bit I have heard.

Hi Henri,

Yes, we do play reels (and other Irish music) at barn dances. Although barn dances really are not that common, occurring mainly in the more rural areas, as you might expect. In most cities around Wisconsin you can find jams where people get together regularly to play acoustic music (bluegrass, oldtime, Irish, country, etc.). Its really fun, generally you dont find accordions at these jams, although you might find the occasional concertina. Ive never been to Ireland, so I cant say how the music is different. I imagine it has changed somewhat. As you know, America has traditionally been the home to many immigrant groups, so there are many traditions that are played, including Irish. Its quite awesome really.
 

Tom

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Geronimo post_id=59731 time=1528050614 user_id=2623 said:
henrikhank post_id=59729 time=1528049393 user_id=2321 said:
Tom post_id=59722 time=1528039638 user_id=69 said:
Hi Henri,

Im from the USA, and here we call this type of music fiddle tunes or jigs and reels, or simply Irish. Ive played plenty of music of this type on my fiddle, but I do not play it on accordion. I do not recognize this tune specifically, but the ending is very common and occurs in tunes that I know such as St. Annes Reel.
You play reels at an American barn dance? I mean, isnt that more of an Irish kinda thing?
Seriously? Do you think square and line dances are a Native American thing too? American traditions and music and even language particularly of New England are mostly ritualized and ossified variants of things they hold up in reverence to their respective European origins. Thats not really untypical of former exclaves.

Hi Geronimo,

As far as Native Americans playing reels, I refer you to the excellent documentary Medicine Fiddle about the Metis tradition, which arose when the fiddle was introduced to native people by French fur traders in the late 1600s and by Irish, Scottish, and Scots-Irish trappers, lumberjacks and homesteaders in the late 1700s.

Most native Americans around here (Ho Chunk) are like anyone else and are most likely to enjoy rock, country, pop, etc. Traditional native American music here is most likely to feature drums, dancing and chanting.

As far as mostly ritualized and ossified variants of things they hold up in reverence to their respective European origins, I have no idea what you are talking about, its just music we play for fun and comraderie, etc.
 

TomBR

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Interesting! I'm not quite sure what you're asking Henrikhank - are you asking about the music and dance itself, or the process by which they have moved from country to country.

I'm very involved in "music and dances of Britain and Ireland." Both dance and tune in your clip are extremely familiar, but also different!

The dance is made up of standard elements that you'd find in many English "barn dances,"
-Circle left,
-Grand Chain
-Swing the next.
Differences
-This is quite slow and stately
- Here you'd nearly always follow Circle left with Circle right - they go on going left for a long time!
-There's no reason why you wouldn't find these dance elements in one big circle over here, but they'd be more common in small circles of four couples.
Similarities
- People get confused in the Grand Chain here too!

The tune is familiar as a version of "Soldiers Joy" which is one of the most widely distributed traditional tunes there is.
The second part of the tune is very similar to a version of Soldiers Joy from the Shetland Islands (which are nearer Norway than the UK.) Once you hear the second part of the tune it becomes more obvious that the first part is a version of Soldiers Joy, again quite similar to the Shetland version which has more scales than some arpeggiated versions.
The tune is also found in the "Old time" music tradition in the USA.

When I went to a dance festival in Prague a few years back we were waiting to take part in a procession and quickly found that Soldiers Joy was a tune we had in common with some Swedish musicians.

Does that relate to what you're interested in at all?
Tom
 

henrikhank

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TomBR post_id=59759 time=1528116037 user_id=323 said:
Interesting! Im not quite sure what youre asking Henrikhank - are you asking about the music and dance itself, or the process by which they have moved from country to country.

Im very involved in music and dances of Britain and Ireland. Both dance and tune in your clip are extremely familiar, but also different!

The dance is made up of standard elements that youd find in many English barn dances,
-Circle left,
-Grand Chain
-Swing the next.
Differences
-This is quite slow and stately
- Here youd nearly always follow Circle left with Circle right - they go on going left for a long time!
-Theres no reason why you wouldnt find these dance elements in one big circle over here, but theyd be more common in small circles of four couples.
Similarities
- People get confused in the Grand Chain here too!

The tune is familiar as a version of Soldiers Joy which is one of the most widely distributed traditional tunes there is.
The second part of the tune is very similar to a version of Soldiers Joy from the Shetland Islands (which are nearer Norway than the UK.) Once you hear the second part of the tune it becomes more obvious that the first part is a version of Soldiers Joy, again quite similar to the Shetland version which has more scales than some arpeggiated versions.
The tune is also found in the Old time music tradition in the USA.

When I went to a dance festival in Prague a few years back we were waiting to take part in a procession and quickly found that Soldiers Joy was a tune we had in common with some Swedish musicians.

Does that relate to what youre interested in at all?
Tom

Kinda interesting.
But what about my question on the reel video?
 

JeffJetton

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henrikhank post_id=59720 time=1528038665 user_id=2321 said:
In Sweden we call this Engelska (English).
It is said to have come from England and then from there to France, USA and Sweden.
Do you have you any example of this?

Well that particular tune sounds suspiciously like Soldiers Joy. Heres a decidedly American version of that:


They probably share an English ancestor somewhere not too far up their musical family tree.
 

Eddy Yates

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Hey Tom and Geronimo....the Metis fiddle tradition is plenty interesting. I've played accordion with some Metis fiddlers, but far as I know, there aren't many others. I don't know why, except maybe for the fact that accordions are a bit delicate, and this music was played in the "bush". Canada is the main place for that tradition, although here in Montana, there were plenty of Metis fiddlers. Maybe there are Canadians on this forum who might enlighten us. I learned a lot from a Turtle Mountain fiddler, Jimmy LaRoque. One weekend I drove up to the Turtle Mountain reservation in North Dakota and played with 4 fiddlers, 3 guitarists, and a bass player. It was incredible, and music I'd had trouble figuring out because there were extra bars and a kind of circular form suddenly made sense. When we really locked in to that circular phenomenon, the dancers literally levitated and could have danced all night to one tune.
I recorded the Fox family playing Metis tunes for my little record label, and Jamie Fox, Metis, is now touring all over the place with her husband, a Swedish fiddler. Kind of full circle for this thread, eh?
Why do Canadians say, "eh?" all the time? Because it sounds better than "huh?"
 

AccordionUprising

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Getting far afield, but inspired by Tom, Geronimo, and Eddys comments:

Ive been searching for years for Metis accordionists. I havent been able to find many examples. Mostly fiddle playing seems to have survived. We know they existed though, theres even an accordion that purports to have belonged to Metis visionary Louis Riel in a museum in Ontario.

Theres a lot of other Native/First Nations fiddle traditions in Canada. Ive spoken with musicians who remember their grandparents playing accordions as well.

The most active Native tradition for sure is the Inuit accordion from up in the Arctic. There they play square dances, jigs and reels which can go on for hours playing a single tune, until the dancers or (less frequently) the musicians quit. Nancy Mike from the rock band the Jerry Cans has taken up the accordion to add to this tradition.

Jim Hiscotts article Inuit Accordion Music: a better kept secret, is probably the best source of background (by an outsider) on the tradition. [link to pdf file]
http://www.canfolkmusic.ca/index.php/cfmb/article/viewFile/428/422[/url]
 

Eddy Yates

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Great stuff! Thanks, Bruce. Going to the Metis Festival in Lewistown, Montana. Maybe some squeezebox players will show up.
Years ago, I helped put together the Metis Heritage performance at the Civic Center in Helena, MT.
Riel lived down the street for a short time when he was in hiding from the CanEnglish.
I’m looking for someone to paint my Tiger Combo ‘Cordion with a Metis design.
 

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