Akko Piano accordion 41/120 - Where can buy ?

[accordmosh1]

This accordion has a Bayan sounding deep bass"


Does any body have an idea where I can buy this accordion ( or any other piano accordion which has a byan style deep bass0 ?

I live in USA .

Thanks for any inputs or suggestions.

 

[Dingo40]

The Scandinavians seem to be into the Akko. Try there.

 

[Dingo40]

Here's a thread that may interest you.
See here :

Finally got my new AKKO. Incredible new experience!

I got my new AKKO through Oleg Lysenko in the Netherlands (last Friday). This is truly a Roll Royce among the accordions. I would say its a bayan, even though it is a C-system instrument. (But opinions may differ.) Im still fine-tuning it. It looks like the Russians are no better at tuning than...

www.accordionists.info

 

[accordmosh1]

The Scandinavians seem to be into the Akko. Try there.

Thanks.
Do you happen to have any Scandinavian connection , link or website for me to follow?

 

[accordmosh1]

Here's a thread that may interest you.
See here :

Finally got my new AKKO. Incredible new experience!

I got my new AKKO through Oleg Lysenko in the Netherlands (last Friday). This is truly a Roll Royce among the accordions. I would say its a bayan, even though it is a C-system instrument. (But opinions may differ.) Im still fine-tuning it. It looks like the Russians are no better at tuning than...

www.accordionists.info

Thanks for pointing this out.

I am afraid that this post is from 2016 when there was no Ukranian war , and business could be done with Russian manufacturers and this post is probably sent by Paul De Bra - who just got his bayan ( button ) accordion. I need a Akko piano accordion, as shown in the YouTube link that I posted earlier. I still welcome any suggestions and ideas.

 

[Dingo40]

I can see the appeal
Don't forget the Jupiter:

 

[debra]

Sorry to burst everyone's bubble but as you all know there is a war going on (although in Russia it is still forbidden to call it a war).
AKKO accordions and bayans are made in Voronesh in Russia, some 200km north-east from Charkov (and 400km south of Moscow).
To buy an AKKO that still needs to be built you likely have to wait until the was is over, and then it still remains to be seen if the skilled workers from the AKKO factory are still alive and available...
There may be AKKO accordions already available in some western countries, but who knows where they have what...
The "deep bass" is of course a matter of having large bayan-style reeds installed in the accordion. Some accordions called "bayan" (like for instance the Pigini Sirius, including the piano accordion model) do have large reed plates with a whole octave installed on the bass side, but these are still Italian reeds that are smaller than the equivalent real bayan reeds. They produce the same sound frequency, but do not have the same power.
Reeds for real bayans are made by harmonikas.cz, the Czech reed maker. They make good reeds and I heard that (before the war) even Russian bayans were fitted with reeds from Harmonikas. But when you get a high quality Italian accordion with large (Italian) reed plates with the lowest octave of reeds, going down to E1, you already do get a powerful bass sound. These Italian accordions already have a much more powerful bass sound than a typical Italian non-convertor accordion.

 

[Ventura]

so my question is, my dear Debra, what western models and manufacturers use
or are willing to use reeds from the Czech reedmakers ?

i mean, it seems to me that they are in business so they
are selling their reeds to someone and i can't imagine they
would have left all their "eggs" in one basket.. even if the Russian
instrument makers were their biggest customers, surely no sane Czech
would have allowed their company to be completely dependent upon Russia..

never again !

i mean culturally i have been told the Czech people are much closer
to Germans than Russians, by history and nature, and that was really why
a separation with Slovakia into two distinct countries even happened

surely they have customers in the West ?

and yes, we will now again see the after affect of War, as i have tried to
impress on people so many times regarding the realities of limits reflected
in italian accordion manufacturing through the end of the 1940's into the 1950's

so many who knew "how" to do things were dead
so few raw materials were available to do anything with !

and Mosh, there is a fella who is a specialist in Bayan's that runs around
the New York / Philadelphia / Harrisburg corridor.. watch for his ad on Craigslist
with an old burgundy Bayan photo.. he used to visit our accordion clubs
once a year or so.. maybe he can hook you up with some old and deep spare parts
if you can connect with him

 

[accordmosh1]

Sorry to burst everyone's bubble but as you all know there is a war going on (although in Russia it is still forbidden to call it a war).
AKKO accordions and bayans are made in Voronesh in Russia, some 200km north-east from Charkov (and 400km south of Moscow).
To buy an AKKO that still needs to be built you likely have to wait until the was is over, and then it still remains to be seen if the skilled workers from the AKKO factory are still alive and available...
There may be AKKO accordions already available in some western countries, but who knows where they have what...
The "deep bass" is of course a matter of having large bayan-style reeds installed in the accordion. Some accordions called "bayan" (like for instance the Pigini Sirius, including the piano accordion model) do have large reed plates with a whole octave installed on the bass side, but these are still Italian reeds that are smaller than the equivalent real bayan reeds. They produce the same sound frequency, but do not have the same power.
Reeds for real bayans are made by harmonikas.cz, the Czech reed maker. They make good reeds and I heard that (before the war) even Russian bayans were fitted with reeds from Harmonikas. But when you get a high quality Italian accordion with large (Italian) reed plates with the lowest octave of reeds, going down to E1, you already do get a powerful bass sound. These Italian accordions already have a much more powerful bass sound than a typical Italian non-convertor accordion.

Thank you Paul.
Everything you write makes perfect sense.
I have looked at the Pigini Sirius or the Bugari Compact (https://www.bugariarmando.com/en/fisarmonica/bayan-compact-2/) - are too big and too heavy for me. I do not need more that 41 piano keys.

Looking at the Akko accordion-YouTube video - one can see that the Akko piano accordion has 41 piano keys and the bass sounds deep like a typical Russian button bayan. BINGO!
I am hopeful that somebody , out there, has such a used Akko accordion for sale.

Thanks for pointing out - harmonikas.cz.
I wonder if they make the complete wooden Bass reed block-fitted with their reeds, or just the reeds ( individual reeds -or- "multiple reeds-mounted on one long plate") and then the Russian bayan manufacturer makes the wooden reed block ( they call it- "Resonator")-?

 

[accordmosh1]

so my question is, my dear Debra, what western models and manufacturers use
or are willing to use reeds from the Czech reedmakers ?

i mean, it seems to me that they are in business so they
are selling their reeds to someone and i can't imagine they
would have left all their "eggs" in one basket.. even if the Russian
instrument makers were their biggest customers, surely no sane Czech
would have allowed their company to be completely dependent upon Russia..

never again !

i mean culturally i have been told the Czech people are much closer
to Germans than Russians, by history and nature, and that was really why
a separation with Slovakia into two distinct countries even happened

surely they have customers in the West ?

and yes, we will now again see the after affect of War, as i have tried to
impress on people so many times regarding the realities of limits reflected
in italian accordion manufacturing through the end of the 1940's into the 1950's

so many who knew "how" to do things were dead
so few raw materials were available to do anything with !

and Mosh, there is a fella who is a specialist in Bayan's that runs around
the New York / Philadelphia / Harrisburg corridor.. watch for his ad on Craigslist
with an old burgundy Bayan photo.. he used to visit our accordion clubs
once a year or so.. maybe he can hook you up with some old and deep spare parts
if you can connect with him

Hello Ventura,
Thanks for your suggestion.
I believe that the 'Bayan Specialist" you mentioned is Sergey Semenov. He is located in Lancaster, PA, USA.
I stumbled across him on YouTube ().
He was very nice, infomative and eager to help.
He sent me info and all the pictures I asked for.

I found that buying bayan parts ( working-or- sold for repair) are reasonably priced on "Ebay.com" or- "Etsy.com"- (from Ukraine).

Also, the task of "adopting" the geometry of the "bayan bass reed black bottom holes" to the "Dallape bass plate holes" is outside of the realm of an accordion repirman. It is more wood craft or possibly- casting-craftsmanship ( which I know nothing about but eager to learn).

I therefore welcome all suggestions and inputs.

 

[debra]

so my question is, my dear Debra, what western models and manufacturers use
or are willing to use reeds from the Czech reedmakers ?

...

I'm sure that reeds from Harmonikas are being used by Italian reed makers, but not advertised as such. They are likely also used by Delicia and Weltmeister. These are good quality reeds, made using high tech equipment.
However, I don't know any Italian accordion builder who uses the bayan bass reeds that are longer than any Italian reeds, and thus require a taller bass block and also leather valves that are longer than all commercially available ones. (So, cut your own.)
I have seen reports (and images and videos) of Italian accordions being modified to fit bayan reeds, not just the large bass reeds but also treble reeds. This requires creating new reed blocks, something an "average" accordion repairer cannot do (but some can, certainly not me). There is a nice video from "mirbajana" (a Ukrainian accordion repairer/restorer) fitting bayan bass reeds in a Vignoni accordion. It made a big difference.

Concretely, when you want to fit bayan bass reeds in an Italian accordion you better start with a convertor accordion. The reason is that commonly a non-convertor cassotto accordion has the large reed block on the side where the cassotto is. A consequence of this is that there is no room to fit a reed block with larger reeds. In a typical convertor accordion the large bass block is on the other side: where the non-cassotto treble reeds are. There is more room for large bass reeds on that side. You need to check how much room there is in the accordion to see what the largest bass reeds are that will fit. You still need to find someone to make the reed block...

Your best bet to get an accordion that comes close to what you want is to talk to some of the smaller accordion makers in Italy (Castelfidardo). They are more likely to be willing to make you a "one off" accordion instead of just what they list in their catalog. Victoria is the largest outfit I know that I have known to make "one off" accordions. There is always a risk involved because a "one off" accordion is an untried design and you don't know beforehand how well it will work and sound... But it's your call (or rather accordmosh's call).

 

[accordmosh1]

I'm sure that reeds from Harmonikas are being used by Italian reed makers, but not advertised as such. They are likely also used by Delicia and Weltmeister. These are good quality reeds, made using high tech equipment.
However, I don't know any Italian accordion builder who uses the bayan bass reeds that are longer than any Italian reeds, and thus require a taller bass block and also leather valves that are longer than all commercially available ones. (So, cut your own.)
I have seen reports (and images and videos) of Italian accordions being modified to fit bayan reeds, not just the large bass reeds but also treble reeds. This requires creating new reed blocks, something an "average" accordion repairer cannot do (but some can, certainly not me). There is a nice video from "mirbajana" (a Ukrainian accordion repairer/restorer) fitting bayan bass reeds in a Vignoni accordion. It made a big difference.

Concretely, when you want to fit bayan bass reeds in an Italian accordion you better start with a convertor accordion. The reason is that commonly a non-convertor cassotto accordion has the large reed block on the side where the cassotto is. A consequence of this is that there is no room to fit a reed block with larger reeds. In a typical convertor accordion the large bass block is on the other side: where the non-cassotto treble reeds are. There is more room for large bass reeds on that side. You need to check how much room there is in the accordion to see what the largest bass reeds are that will fit. You still need to find someone to make the reed block...

Your best bet to get an accordion that comes close to what you want is to talk to some of the smaller accordion makers in Italy (Castelfidardo). They are more likely to be willing to make you a "one off" accordion instead of just what they list in their catalog. Victoria is the largest outfit I know that I have known to make "one off" accordions. There is always a risk involved because a "one off" accordion is an untried design and you don't know beforehand how well it will work and sound... But it's your call (or rather accordmosh's call).

Thanks Paul. Great ideas ! If you happen to have the link to the "mirbajana" video -you referred to- please let me know. I'd love to see how the Vignoni accordion mod was done. You idea of Victoria and "one off" is wonderfully out of the box-idea. Costwise- it might be prohibitive , but-it never hurts to ask . Thank you. Again, I welcome all inputs and suggestions.

 

[debra]

Thanks Paul. Great ideas ! If you happen to have the link to the "mirbajana" video -you referred to- please let me know. I'd love to see how the Vignoni accordion mod was done. You idea of Victoria and "one off" is wonderfully out of the box-idea. Costwise- it might be prohibitive , but-it never hurts to ask . Thank you. Again, I welcome all inputs and suggestions.

Mirbajana appears to have changed its name, but this is the video.

 

[Vladimir M.]

Hi accordmosh1,

I am responding to both of your posts (here and here), which refer to essentially the same thing: Desires for expressive and deep voices in the bass. In order to get such a sound, we do not necessarily need to reach for Russian Bayans or instruments with melodic bass. Many manufacturers also install deep voices from the contra-E (E1) into instruments with a standard bass. For example, I have this Instrument. It has a powerful, brachial bass. The problem is that manufacturers (and even distributors) often don't mention such details as the deepest note in the bass. And what's worse, even almost identical models differ. For example, W-Cantus V Deluxe (= E1) but W-Cantus V (=G1) -only the deluxe version has deeper tones (which, by the way, was also the reason why I decided on this version). In the past, it was not customary to build too deep tones in the bass. This tendency is more pronounced only in recent years. So what next? From my point of view:

• Try to modify what you have according to your plan, what you have. No one can want to change you in their own image. But!
• Follow the information about the instruments and try to get an overview that could possibly help you in the future to get to an instrument that will better meet your expectations.
• Sure, it might be a compromise between your wishes and your budget, but that's the way things are in the world.
• I wish you the best of luck!

Off-topic ON:

i mean culturally i have been told the Czech people are much closer
to Germans than Russians, by history and nature, and that was really why
a separation with Slovakia into two distinct countries even happened

I'm Slovak. My dear Ventura, even if a marriage breaks up, the public and relatives must be told some credible version of the cause. But what happened in reality - is often still hidden behind the door of the apartment or the bedroom. The same is true of divided nations. And reality can never be expressed in a single sentence. I had a lot of fun with your above version, but you can continue to believe it.
Off-topic OFF:

Back to the point:
As for the reeds: It is not a problem for an experienced craftsman to adapt voice plates with a different scale. I myself have seen secondary used (and slightly shortened by sawing) reed plates a few times. It doesn't matter if Harmonikas, Salpa, Bugari or others are used.

Best regards, Vladimír

 

[debra]

Hi accordmosh1,

I am responding to both of your posts (here and here), which refer to essentially the same thing: Desires for expressive and deep voices in the bass. In order to get such a sound, we do not necessarily need to reach for Russian Bayans or instruments with melodic bass. Many manufacturers also install deep voices from the contra-E (E1) into instruments with a standard bass. For example, I have this Instrument. It has a powerful, brachial bass. The problem is that manufacturers (and even distributors) often don't mention such details as the deepest note in the bass. And what's worse, even almost identical models differ. For example, W-Cantus V Deluxe (= E1) but W-Cantus V (=G1) -only the deluxe version has deeper tones (which, by the way, was also the reason why I decided on this version). In the past, it was not customary to build too deep tones in the bass. This tendency is more pronounced only in recent years. So what next? From my point of view:
...

It is true that manufacturers most often do not mention which note in the bass is the lowest, just like they don't mention the tuning frequency (440, 442 or something else)... and the reason they don't mention important points is that most customers just get confused when they need to make a choice and end up buying nothing...
To make accordions, even without melody bass, with a deep sounding strong bass the most commonly technique is to use Winkelbaß (the lowest reed bank sits on top of the other reed blocks, at a 90 degree angle, and their sound goes through a longer tube inside the reed block. (It works a bit like a single-note cassotto for each note. A Winkelbaß is also something rarely mentioned by a manufacturer... same reason: ignorant customers.
But... there are limits to what you can achieve with the "smallish" Italian reeds. Russian style bayan bass reeds (whether made in Russia or elsewhere) are simply larger and can therefore produce a stronger sound than smaller reeds can. A large reed plate with a whole octave of large Italian reeds (as used in many Italian "bayan" accordions) may look impressive, but only until you see them side by side with a similar real bayan reed plate. The bayan reeds are at least half an inch longer and need only smaller added weights to achieve the lowest frequencies, and it does result in a stronger sound.
I know what I'm talking about: I play the bass accordion, a Pigini C39, which has large reed plates (6 notes on each, to divide each octave over two reed blocks), and I play a Russian (AKKO) bayan. The bayan does not go down as low (E1 versus C1 on the bass accordion) but the sound is clearly stronger. (I always use amplification with the bass accordion, even in just an accordion quintet, because the bass accordion is not loud enough.) The construction of course also matters. I had a Bugari bass accordion before, which uses an "Umlenkstimmstock" (that's like Winkelbaß but with a 180 degree angle) and that was louder than the Pigini which does not have this construction. One can only wonder what an accordion with bayan reeds on a Winkelbaß might sound like...

 

[petch]

I would like to add to what Paul is saying, just because an instrument goes down to E1 doesn't mean it will have that nice, deep bass sound you're probably after

The E1 on my treble sounds pathetic compared to the E1 on the bass half. The treble side is in cassotto, but the bass side E1 is much bigger with a smaller weight on the end of the reed

 

[debra]

I would like to add to what Paul is saying, just because an instrument goes down to E1 doesn't mean it will have that nice, deep bass sound you're probably after

The E1 on my treble sounds pathetic compared to the E1 on the bass half. The treble side is in cassotto, but the bass side E1 is much bigger with a smaller weight on the end of the reed

Exactly! The difference between treble and bass on a large CBA where both sides go down to E1 is enormous. The small reeds with large weights on the treble side are pretty poor. And because they are in cassotto manufacturers also struggle to prevent the lowest treble reeds from hitting the bellows frame or first bellows fold. (I had to fix this problem on a number of accordions already.)
A real bayan not only has larger bass reeds, it also has larger and stronger-steel low treble reeds. The difference in response and power in the lowest octave between a Russian bayan and an Italian CBA is very clear. Often it doesn't matter as people rarely use that lowest octave.

 

[Vladimir M.]

Dear accordmosh1,

The E1 on my treble sounds pathetic compared to the E1 on the bass half.

I just want to reassure you that you won't have such problems with the deep tone in the treble. Because in the vast majority, only button instruments (which petch probably also has), not piano accordions, have a range to such a depth. One of the few exceptions I know of is the Hohner Imperator VS (32´-16´-8´-4´- 2 2/3´). Most other common 41/120 four-voices piano accordions (LMMH or 16´-8´-8´-4´ - which you are also interested in in this thread) has normally range of keys:
L: F – a´´ (F2-A5)
2x M: f – a´´´ (F3-A6)
H: f´ - a´´´´ (F4-A7)

Otherwise I agree, if we want to have a more powerful bass sound, then in addition to (desirably) deeper tones, the reeds (and the reed plates on which they are attached) must also be more robust and larger. But that's (mostly) a standard thing with accordions. The million-dollar question is: How much more monumental bass sound do you need (as you noticed, I didn't use the word "stronger" or "louder" but more monumental)? An acquaintance of mine got "fed up" after playing his accordion with such a bass-sound for some time and then changed his instrument for another one. Compared to the 5-voice treble, my instrument I mentioned has "only" a four-voice bass. I can easily praise it here, because it has not been produced for almost 30 years. So, no hidden advertising. Not even an attempt to influence. Only my few experience and observations:

After all, the accordion is also a product. That means: the instrument is built in such a way that it is sold as much as possible. Therefore, even the bass is (must be) a compromise: The right bass should be such that it gives a sound with monumental dignity, and simultaneously, that it can be able to accompany the subtle 8'-cassotto in the treble. Having an impressive beautiful dominant heroic bass sound is a beautiful thing. But…

• What kind of music do you want to make?
• In which acoustic spaces do you want to play?
• What treble registers do you want to use?

... with such a powerful bass? The purpose meets the need...

It's evening here, so I wish the Europeans a lovely evening and the Australians a pleasant new day...

Best regards, Vladimir

 

[accordmosh1]

Thank you Paul and Vladimir. You both raise crucial points and ideas which further lead me to the following conclusions-
1. In order to achieve the true bass sound , larger reeds must be used . Based upon sketches of the Jupiter metal bass reed plate ( sent to me today by- Harmonikas.cz) and Sergey Semanov ( bayan repair man - in Lancaster, PA, USA) the reed length of the lowest bass note ( E1) should be close to 9 mm high. My current Dallape -lowest bass note - C2 has a height of 6.4 mm.
2. Having all bass reeds riveted onto one metallic bass plate-as opposed to single ( one reed per bass note) reeds - waxed into a wooden reed block should yiels more resonance , richer overtones and louder volume.

I have a few ways to go-
1. I have ordered 2 bayans from Ukraine ( via Ebay) and in a few weeks, when they arrive I will look inside and see if I can use the big bass reed block or possibly the individual bass reeds . Problem- My dallape bass reed block starts ( from Left) with C2( lowest bass note) and moves to the right ( as the notes become sharper-C#2 etc) and the reeds become smaller. The Russian bayan bass reed block also starts on the left and gradually decreased reed height as you move to the right EXCEPT that the bayan Left-most note is E1. Therefore I can not simply "transplant" the bayan bass reed block into my Dallape. I may need to build a new bass reed block ( definitely taller ) so that the Left-most bass note is still C ( in order for my Dallape basses to work properly -otherwise -I will be playing a C bass note but hearing an -E note !!)

2. I will have to extend the Dallape bellow height, somehow- to accomodate the taller new reed block.

3. Another option- buy a "complete" Russian bayan left side. Zenano Accordion has a YasnayaYasnaya onto the Dallape. An iteresting "mixed marrige" of Russian/ Italian nature with an adptor as a "marrige -match-maker". I have written the owner Novikov about my idea. He has not yet answered. He may never answer, if he think That I am crazy enough.

Just as abackground , since Vladimir mentioned the context of usage of the "Deep bayn type bass" which he called 'monumental" ( I can not stop smiling !).
Anyway, over 60 years ago a Ukranian folk group called "The Chorus of the Volga" recorded a wonderful song called 'In our Kuybishev". I was still a teen-ager , living in Israel , when it played on the radio. It became an instant hit ( they still sing it there- now with Hebrew words). Shortly, when we immigrated to USA , I found the whole album. I cherish it till today. On that album I first heard the bayan. The deep bass sounded nothing like the 80 bass Scandalli and Paolo Soprani that we used in Israel. I always wonedred how that bass was produced. I am resolved on getting it now.

I can not attach mp3 songs here from that album, where you can hear the "monumental' bass sound I am after.

I can send them to you if I have your email , Vladimir. Paul, are you also interested?

In conclusion-
I can not say it enough- Please shoot me any ideas, reactions , suggestions etc.

They are all welcome !

 

[Vladimir M.]

Hi accordmosh1!

Thank you for your favorable answer. I forgot to mention another important thing. And that is: Effect of the overall corpus of the instrument on the resulting sound. One of my friends had two accordions, one with a beautiful sound and the other model with bland sound. Both accordions came from the same manufacturer and coincidentally had the same size of the design of the resonators and the same ordering of their tone chambers. Experiment: He replaced the resonators (each other) in the two accordions. The result was surprising. The instrument that had previously a beautiful sound, had it even after the "transplantation" of resonators from the second accordion. The second accordion retained a bland sound despite extraneous resonators. Conclusion: Beware of the sound characteristics of the box as a whole...

I like all your ideas (1, 2 and 3) and consider them to be very interesting. Perhaps as a prevention against possible disappointment from (potentially unsatisfactory) sound after possible extensive reconstructions (time and financial consumption) of the instrument, I would propose one more "temporary testing solution" no. 4 : Throw out from the deepest octave tones (E2 – B2) and replace (waxing) with the reed-plates of the tones (E1-B1; of course – you can leave the reed-plates C2- E♭2). Be careful that the dimensions of the new plates match the dimensions of the tone chambers. This gives you the first "simulation" of deeper bass (from E1 to E♭2) for relatively little money. If the test succeeds in your satisfaction, then continue (in more extensive reconstructions) and you can the few single bass reed-plates simply sell. It's just only my crazy idea (with which other more experienced forum-members may not agree) in the sense of maximizing efficiency and minimization of losses…

The Chorus of the Volga: Oh yeah... Did you mean this? Nicely presented...

Best regards, Vladimir