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12x4 bass query

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Hello all,
my query leads on from another post relating to 12x4 bass setups (counterbass to minor chord) and the lack of 7th's.
I've looked for answers online as to how you can play 7th's on this setup with little success. The results I have found don't sound quite right (to my ear anyway) when I try them-perhaps it's me.
Apologies if this subject has been covered before.
Any suggestions would be welcome.
Orma
 
It is almost impossible.

For example: C7 consist of C E G Bb
First three notes are in C major chord and Bb is missing
If we play C together with CM + gm we get C9 - C E G Bb D
If we play C together with em we get CM7 - C E G B

and so on...

Only possibility seems to be play Bb and CM together, then only this one inversion is available.

Does 12x4 bass setup have two root rows and major and minor rows?
 
Thanks Nuuksu,
I believe 12x4 is counterbass, fundamental, major chord and minor chord

What I have read is copied below:

  " press the counter bass and the major chord from the next vertical row, ie. E bass (the counterbass) and G major chord. So you have Em7".
(Apologies to whoever wrote this as I can't relocate the piece to credit the author)
Is this what you re referring to?

A lot of what I read suggests playing a major chord instead of a 7th chord but I would rather keep 7th's if possible.
 
Some 4 row bass setups are = counterbass, fundamental, major, minor
Other 4 row bass setups are = fundamental, major, minor, seventh
ymmv

Several threads about this question here at The Accordionists Forum.
 
Corinto said:
Some 4 row bass setups are = counterbass, fundamental, major, minor
Other 4 row bass setups are = fundamental, major, minor, seventh
ymmv

Several threads about this question here at The Accordionists Forum.



I did do searches on here and elswhere-obviously missed them.

But my query is how to play 7ths with 4 rows running from counterbass to minor chord (cfmm).

Incidently the Lucia you are looking for is cfmm. I asked a friend about one that passed through his hands. He is of the opinion that they were all set up this way by Hohner.
 
Corinto said:
Several threads about this question here at The Accordionists Forum.
Sorry, I should have said several posts, because there are post about this specific question, but these posts are usually hidden within threads with a very different heading. I think I remember a post by Glenn where he explained how to do several of these chords, and I copied this info, but now I cant find it ... kept it probably on my desktop computer. Or maybe its my memory that fools me.

Orma said:
[Incidently the Lucia you are looking for is cfmm. I asked a friend about one that passed through his hands. He is of the opinion that they were all set up this way by Hohner.
Yes, I know, thats ok for me.
 
Thanks Corinto,
good luck in finding that special Lucia or similar. There's got to be one for you out there somewhere.
 
If you still prefer 7th then I think that this one inversion that I mentioned earlier is available only. Maybe this kind of bass line works

C CM G CM | C CM E CM | F GM D GM | G GM D GM |G GM D GM | G G A B | C CM F FM | CM G CM ||

in this simple fox/polka line GM chord with F fundamental give some hint to 7th.
 
Not really an answer to your question, but you can research button combinations using this tool (you will need Java installed):
http://accordionbasstool.googlecode.com/hg/web/index.html
You would have to choose the 48 Bass (12 x 4) layout and ignore the few extra buttons.

But like Nuuksu said, your easiest option would be, e.g.:
C7 = CM + Bb
The alternative is to press 3 bass buttons (C + E + Bb), but that might not be very easy when youre playing Bass-Chord style accompaniment.

I think a reason why these workarounds might sound strange sometimes is because of the reed sets that gets played when you press a single note versus a chord. Depending on the register (with such a small bass side Ill guess you dont have any switches available) and the length the note sounds, youll most likely end up with a much louder (and lower) Bb in comparison to the individual notes from the CM button. This could possibly lead to sounding like youre playing C Bb+C7 instead of C C7. The other method of playing three single notes would make this sound even more different.

I tried something like this for diminished chords on my 80 bass. Especially on the tenor register the missing single note played together with a chord button just sounded too different compared to a single or combined chord buttons. This is because the lower octave of that single note button doesnt ever sound when pressing chord buttons.
 
Thanks for the comprehensive answers Nuuksu and Morne.

I think it'll be a case of playing around with these suggestions until it sounds right to me as I play by ear.
It's little more than an academic exercise at the moment as I have a 72 bass. Like others on here I keep half an eye out for a tiny CBA to go in hand luggage on trips abroad-and no I don't want an accordina :D
 
Morne said:
I tried something like this for diminished chords on my 80 bass. Especially on the tenor register the missing single note played together with a chord button just sounded too different compared to a single or combined chord buttons. This is because the lower octave of that single note button doesnt ever sound when pressing chord buttons.

Is that right? How odd! Im not going to vary so far from my normal mental torpor as to figure out how that would work, mechanically, but just guessing it seems like it might be some elaborate extra work, for the sake of annoying the owner.
 
In case I was a little unclear, have a look at http://www.accordions.com/articles/stradella.aspx

Say Im using the tenor register here. There are 3 voices that will sound when pressing the single bass button, but only the upper 2 will sound for a chord button. When you play a single C youre supposed to have 3 octaves playing. When you press CM or C7 youll have the 3 notes each playing on the upper 2 octaves only. Now when you add a single Bb to a CM you will get the two upper octaves for Bb completing the C7, but you will have that lower Bb in addition to it all. This is different to combining chord buttons where all of them are in the upper two octaves.

You can hear the difference most clearly when youre playing drone chords. A held down Bb+CM has a clear difference, in my case, compared to C7 because of the different octave being added via Bb.

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If I remember correctly the mechanics in my case comes down to having two levers running over 5 holes per note. The one lever opens 2 holes (Bass, Tenor), the other lever opens 3 holes (Contralto, Alto, Soprano). The single bass buttons operate both levers, and the chord buttons operate only the 3-hole lever. This corresponds with the explanation on that page.
 
Orma, when you say the combinations you have tried dont sound right, do you mean that they dont sound like the right chord, or that the resulting sound doesnt fit?

Here is an example of what I explained above. The first part of the recording is my real C7 button, the second part is CM + Bb. To me there is a clear difference in the sounds character.

 

Attachments

  • Example.mp3
    137.5 KB · Views: 34
Morne said:
This is different to combining chord buttons where all of them are in the upper two octaves.

This may be the part we ought to look harder at.

The stradella system doesnt duplicate reeds. I mean, you may have several different register voices, but within one voice - say the one used for the chord buttons - theres only one reed per note. So if you combine Cmaj and Cdom7 you hear only one extra reed (because Cdom7 omits the 5th, I suppose on your accordion, or the root on mine.) Likewise, if C and Cmaj share a reed, that root voice wont sound any louder with the two combined.

But on a normal accordion, no reeds from one button are suppressed by the action of another button.

Morne said:
You can hear the difference most clearly when youre playing drone chords. A held down Bb+CM has a clear difference, in my case, compared to C7 because of the different octave being added via Bb.

But here I see we agree, so ... sorry, nevermind! apparently some confusion over what you meant. Though we should note that Bb + Cmaj will also add the 5th, if its missing from Cdom7. For all that anyone would care.
 
Morne said:
Orma, when you say the combinations you have tried dont sound right, do you mean that they dont sound like the right chord, or that the resulting sound doesnt fit?

Here is an example of what I explained above. The first part of the recording is my real C7 button, the second part is CM + Bb. To me there is a clear difference in the sounds character.

[ATTACHMENT NOT FOUND]



Thanks for all your efforts Morne- Im not the most savvy about chord and bass theory.
Listening to your clip I too can hear a distinct difference as well.

I suppose I do mean the resulting sound doesnt fit.
I hope Im being a bit clearer
 
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