Pigini Sirius
#1
Hi! I'm searching a second hand Pigini Sirius C system, if someone know's about one on sale I would thank's a lot.
It doesn't matter if the accordion is in Spain or France (I know people from there that can help me to test and buy the instrument)

Thanks! {}
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#2
Any specific reason for wanting a Sirius? The first generation Sirius (most likely to be available second hand) is essentially a copy of the design of Russian bayans. This doesn't mean much for the keyboard side but it means the bass side is LM in roughly the lowest octave and LL for the higher notes. Not everyone likes this. The base notes are 2 voice or 4 voice, using reeds of their own for the 4 voice version, not borrowing reeds from the higher octaves (and chords).

So is any of this something you want specifically?

Also, be aware that the old Sirius accordions may have wax that has become brittle. (I bumped a reed block from a Sirius while tuning a note just today and five reed plates fell off. Not the first time this happened. Easy fix when you have the gear, but annoying when it happens.) That may of course happen also to other 50 year old accordions...
Paul De Bra (not Debra...)
http://www.de-bra.nl
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#3
<QUOTE author="debra" post_id="56207" time="1521312994" user_id="605"><s>
debra post_id=56207 time=1521312994 user_id=605 Wrote:Any specific reason for wanting a Sirius? The first generation Sirius (most likely to be available second hand) is essentially a copy of the design of Russian bayans. This doesn't mean much for the keyboard side but it means the bass side is LM in roughly the lowest octave and LL for the higher notes. Not everyone likes this. The base notes are 2 voice or 4 voice, using reeds of their own for the 4 voice version, not borrowing reeds from the higher octaves (and chords).

So is any of this something you want specifically?

Also, be aware that the old Sirius accordions may have wax that has become brittle. (I bumped a reed block from a Sirius while tuning a note just today and five reed plates fell off. Not the first time this happened. Easy fix when you have the gear, but annoying when it happens.) That may of course happen also to other 50 year old accordions...

Thanks for your reply Paul, the reason is that I'm searching an accordion with 3 voices on the free basses, so I think that a Pigini Sirius it's a good option.
It maybe doesn't matter the right hand, number of notes, registers, etc.. but what i want is that 3 voices on FB (pigini only have this on Sirius and Nova) and maybe I can find a Sirius model for a considerated price, also I'm open to hear ideas from people that know's like you.
Greetings.
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#4
<QUOTE author="luisger_accordion" post_id="56212" time="1521318465" user_id="2795"><s>
luisger_accordion post_id=56212 time=1521318465 user_id=2795 Wrote:<QUOTE author="debra" post_id="56207" time="1521312994" user_id="605"><s>
debra post_id=56207 time=1521312994 user_id=605 Wrote:Any specific reason for wanting a Sirius?
[...]
Also, be aware that the old Sirius accordions may have wax that has become brittle. (I bumped a reed block from a Sirius while tuning a note just today and five reed plates fell off. Not the first time this happened. Easy fix when you have the gear, but annoying when it happens.) That may of course happen also to other 50 year old accordions...
Unless they never had wax in the first place. Admittedly, leather gaskets can become brittle as well and then may start leaking air. But at least plates would not fall off.
<QUOTE><s>
Quote:Thanks for your reply Paul, the reason is that I'm searching an accordion with 3 voices on the free basses, so I think that a Pigini Sirius it's a good option.
It maybe doesn't matter the right hand, number of notes, registers, etc.. but what i want is that 3 voices on FB (pigini only have this on Sirius and Nova) and maybe I can find a Sirius model for a considerated price, also I'm open to hear ideas from people that know's like you.
Greetings.
While we are playing the "any specific reason" game: why do you want 3 voices on the free bass? My main accordion has LM in the free bass, with high quality reed plates screwed on leather gaskets. Without cassotto, the LM in the free bass has a quite more piercing sound quality than LM in the treble. I do use it as a separate registration in accordion orchestra because of its brass-like quality. Most of the time I just register L in the free bass even when having, say, MMM in the treble. When in doubt, I'd always go for more distinctive but fewer reeds: they make for more transparent voicing (which may not be what you want in a standard bass though).

So I'd really recommend taking the literature you want when checking out instruments and see whether what they can be made to sound like suits your bill, never mind how they are organized internally.
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#5
This is currently on ebay:

<URL url="https://www.ebay.com/itm/Akkordeon-Pigini-Sirius-Cassotto-Converter-a-mano/202262316003?hash=item2f17c603e3:g:NAQAAOSwxOFaaNdc"><s>[url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.ebay.com/itm/Akkordeon-Pigi ... SwxOFaaNdc">https://www.ebay.com/itm/Akkordeon-Pigini-Sirius-Cassotto-Converter-a-mano/202262316003?hash=item2f17c603e3:g:NAQAAOSwxOFaaNdc</LINK_TEXT>[/url]</URL>
xocd
Somerville, MA
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#6
<QUOTE author="xocd" post_id="56226" time="1521332081" user_id="2246"><s>
xocd post_id=56226 time=1521332081 user_id=2246 Wrote:This is currently on ebay:

<URL url="https://www.ebay.com/itm/Akkordeon-Pigini-Sirius-Cassotto-Converter-a-mano/202262316003?hash=item2f17c603e3:g:NAQAAOSwxOFaaNdc"><s>[url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.ebay.com/itm/Akkordeon-Pigi ... SwxOFaaNdc">https://www.ebay.com/itm/Akkordeon-Pigini-Sirius-Cassotto-Converter-a-mano/202262316003?hash=item2f17c603e3:g:NAQAAOSwxOFaaNdc</LINK_TEXT>[/url]</URL>

Thank's xocd, I have seen that post but it seems that it's an old Sirius model, I don't like a lot that form of the right manual and more aesthetic details, and maybe this model its more heavy, but thanks a lot for your reply!
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#7
The Sirius on Ebay doesn't look like a typical Sirius bayan at all (RH keyboard is in the wrong position). The design from the Ebay listing looks very much like the design of the first generation Sirius PA accordions, but with buttons instead of piano keyboard. (Keyboard position and register placement are identical.)
The Sirius (serial number 52) I worked on is one of the first generation I know. It definitely does not have 3 voices in the bass. It is two voices, LM in for lower notes, LL for higher notes. It looks like the accordion on Ebay also is LL, definitely not what the OK seems to want. (The old PA Sirius has the same bass side.)
The original Sirius bayans do not have a row of bass registers at all. They have a convertor switch and two (or two times two) buttons to switch between 2 and 4 reed base notes. In Stradella chord basses there is nothing you can select in the way of registers at all. Why is this? It is identical to what Russian bayans have. The Sirius also does not have the "winkelbas" that is shown in the Ebay listing.
There are later Sirius bayans that do have registers and thus are not a direct copy of the Russian bayan bass design. But these too have the keyboard further from the player's body than the one in the Ebay listing.

Interesting that there are so many different designs that all go by the Sirius name. It just means you have to be more careful when looking at a listing because many of the variants are not what you want...

This is what a SIrius bayan bass inside looks like:
<IMG src="http://wwwis.win.tue.nl/~debra/photos/divers2018/slides/P1120688.jpg"><s>[img][/img]</IMG>
<IMG src="http://wwwis.win.tue.nl/~debra/photos/divers2018/slides/P1120689.jpg"><s>[img][/img]</IMG>
Note the extra row of reeds left and right of the block with the base notes. These offer the 4 reed base notes. The construction on a Russian bayan is identical. The keyboard side is:
<IMG src="http://wwwis.win.tue.nl/~debra/photos/divers2018/slides/P1120691.jpg"><s>[img][/img]</IMG>
The top three L reeds in the picture fell off yesterday (all fixed in a few minutes). You can see that these are typical Italian small L reeds with heavy weight and poor response. If you want good response you need to get a Russian bayan.

One final detail: the Ebay listing shows an accordion that uses bellow pins (like most Italian and German accordions). A Russian bayan uses bolts instead of pins, and that design aspect too was copied in the SIrius: it uses bolts.
Paul De Bra (not Debra...)
http://www.de-bra.nl
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#8
Another pointer: if you look on the Bugari website (<URL url="http://www.bugariarmando.com/">http://www.bugariarmando.com/</URL>) you can see that their top of the line Bayan Prime is also a copy of the Russian design, having no set of bass registers, and only LL in the bass. Only the Bayan Selecta has 3 sets of reeds in the bass which you can order as LLH or LMH.
Pigini lists the Sirius Millenium with 3 sets of bass reeds, LLH only. But older Sirius bayans do not have that. I don't know when they started making them with 3 sets of bass reeds.
Paul De Bra (not Debra...)
http://www.de-bra.nl
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#9
Paul,

I am curious. What type of accordion and specs would you recommend to play Bach's keyboard works (Well Tempered Clavier, etc.)?

Thanks,
xocd
Somerville, MA
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#10
<QUOTE author="xocd" post_id="56260" time="1521411563" user_id="2246"><s>
xocd post_id=56260 time=1521411563 user_id=2246 Wrote:Paul,

I am curious. What type of accordion and specs would you recommend to play Bach's keyboard works (Well Tempered Clavier, etc.)?

Thanks,
Cannot vouch for Paul, but <URL url="http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Rist-Larsen-Lena.htm"><s>[URL="http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Rist-Larsen-Lena.htm"]Lena Rist-Larsen[/URL]</URL> apparently had an accordion built particularly for such music. There is a video (well, audio with pictures of the CD) to be found at <URL url="https://youtu.be/8XH1QzPq5OA"><s>[URL="https://youtu.be/8XH1QzPq5OA"]this link.[/URL]</URL> Just wish one could find actually useful information and pictures of her instrument.
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#11
<QUOTE author="Geronimo" post_id="56263" time="1521412692" user_id="2623"><s>
Geronimo post_id=56263 time=1521412692 user_id=2623 Wrote:Cannot vouch for Paul, but <URL url="http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Rist-Larsen-Lena.htm"><s>[URL="http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Rist-Larsen-Lena.htm"]Lena Rist-Larsen[/URL]</URL> apparently had an accordion built particularly for such music. There is a video (well, audio with pictures of the CD) to be found at <URL url="https://youtu.be/8XH1QzPq5OA"><s>[URL="https://youtu.be/8XH1QzPq5OA"]this link.[/URL]</URL> Just wish one could find actually useful information and pictures of her instrument.

I have listened to her Goldbergs which I find amazing.

Mie Miki plays the Well Tempered Clavier on a Gola.
xocd
Somerville, MA
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#12
<QUOTE author="xocd" post_id="56264" time="1521413099" user_id="2246"><s>
xocd post_id=56264 time=1521413099 user_id=2246 Wrote:Mie Miki plays the Well Tempered Clavier on a Gola.
Somewhat counterintuitively I'd consider a CBA better suited than a piano accordion (Mie Miki plays the latter if I am not mistaken). My rationale for that is that an accordion does not give you a graceful manner for passing a voice from one hand to the other so the additional per-hand range on the right hand of a CBA will come handy for keeping the voicing reasonably undisturbed.
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#13
<QUOTE author="Geronimo" post_id="56267" time="1521413795" user_id="2623"><s>
Geronimo post_id=56267 time=1521413795 user_id=2623 Wrote:<QUOTE author="xocd" post_id="56264" time="1521413099" user_id="2246"><s>
xocd post_id=56264 time=1521413099 user_id=2246 Wrote:Mie Miki plays the Well Tempered Clavier on a Gola.
Somewhat counterintuitively I'd consider a CBA better suited than a piano accordion (Mie Miki plays the latter if I am not mistaken). My rationale for that is that an accordion does not give you a graceful manner for passing a voice from one hand to the other so the additional per-hand range on the right hand of a CBA will come handy for keeping the voicing reasonably undisturbed.

Yes, I agree that a CBA is a more practical choice.
xocd
Somerville, MA
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#14
Long ago Harry Mooten recorded the series of preludes and fugues by Bach, using a Gola. Probably not the very best performances ever but the left and right hand of the Gola go well together.
I would generally also consider a CBA more suitable, and also, a CBA that gives you the choice of L, LM and M in the left hand, for the entire length of the keyboard. (The Morino N and S series force M to be included in the lowest octave, and so do most Russian bayans and also the original Pigini Sirius. The later Sirius gives you L, LM and M options for the whole range.)
But there is an advantage to the bayan left hand as well. You cannot play a smooth scale that goes through the switch from LM to LL but in typical accompaniment the LM for the low notes works well together with the LL for the higher notes. Take my arrangement for duo of the Adagio from BWV 564 for instance. (<URL url="http://www.de-bra.nl/arrangements/Adagio_BWV_564-duo.pdf"><LINK_TEXT text="http://www.de-bra.nl/arrangements/Adagi ... 64-duo.pdf">http://www.de-bra.nl/arrangements/Adagio_BWV_564-duo.pdf</LINK_TEXT></URL>) The left hand works well on the bayan. And because you often to want LM in the lower octave many convertor instruments give you an "octave switch" that will add in an extra octave, essentially copying the bayan behavior.
Paul De Bra (not Debra...)
http://www.de-bra.nl
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#15
<QUOTE author="debra" post_id="56278" time="1521448090" user_id="605"><s>
debra post_id=56278 time=1521448090 user_id=605 Wrote:Long ago Harry Mooten recorded the series of preludes and fugues by Bach, using a Gola. Probably not the very best performances ever but the left and right hand of the Gola go well together.
I would generally also consider a CBA more suitable, and also, a CBA that gives you the choice of L, LM and M in the left hand, for the entire length of the keyboard. (The Morino N and S series force M to be included in the lowest octave,
So does the D series. My main instrument where I can switch off the M reed is not standard in that (and a number of other) respects even though it shares a number of traits and the basic build with the Artiste D series.

The difference is live more pronounced than on recordings, particularly so if your replay happens on devices without solid bass response. That's quite apparent on the <URL url="https://youtu.be/Hjzo1u2-XoI"><s>[URL="https://youtu.be/Hjzo1u2-XoI"]last Turks Fruit arrangement recording[/URL]</URL> I did , admittedly partly because I messed a bit with the bass EQ. It sounds sort of fine on typical smallish playback devices (like a laptop soundbar starting at something like 100Hz) but gains surprisingly much on good HiFi speakers. It's L-only until about 1:20 mark with a really low passage after 0:50. It's LM after that, M after 2:00, LM from 2:45–3:55 and just L after that. Particularly the LM/L difference is not all that apparent on smaller devices.

It helps keeping things a bit more transparent with small registrations in the treble but with that piece we are talking about standard bass use. When playing with the free bass, for typical keyboard works one does not even reach the bass octave all that often. When one does, being able to register "continuously" is helpful but you still have to keep your dynamics in check since the bass reeds are significantly larger than the baritone reeds above the bass octave and "top out" quite later than other reeds if you really squeeze that box. So I definitely can sympathize with a free-bass-only approach built for consistency.

I use the free bass on <URL url="https://youtu.be/WyGp2WZH8gY"><s>[URL="https://youtu.be/WyGp2WZH8gY"]this version of the Air from Bach's orchestra suite #3[/URL]</URL> and registering LM for consistency in the left hand (the bass octave is occasionally reached) would be too strong and muddy for my taste, so here I am glad for that L-only choice. I think that one can still hear the bass octave reeds responding stronger than the baritone reeds the few times I dip below E2 but it's quite tolerable. But I can't crescendo on those notes or the discontinuity in reed size becomes apparent.
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